Billet turbine (input) shafts are now available.
Outputs and MORE coming soon.:D
Smoop (Sun Coast)

Oooooooo!

look good Joe, how much % stronger are they?

look good Joe, how much % stronger are they?

If the OEM shaft breaks and this one doesn't, then I would say infinite %
smoop:think:

:drool:

They will definately be in my next trans! Great job Joe!

I wonder if even a DTT tranny will be able to eat one of these babies.:stirthepo

At what point do they become 'necessary'? How much does this raise the price for a Full Race-prepped (stage V with these) trans?


They look nice!!!


C-YA

If the OEM shaft breaks and this one doesn't, then I would say infinite %
smoop:think:

Didn't know if u guys did any testing to see what the stock would hold vs your new one.

Kind of wondering what point it's needed, that was all.

I wonder if even a DTT tranny will be able to eat one of these babies.:stirthepo

That's a cold shot right there. ):h

That puts the "urdy" in PURDY! ):h :thumb:

Can we assume all new stage V's will come with these shafts or is there going to be an a la carte trans available.

I wonder if even a DTT tranny will be able to eat one of these babies.:stirthepo

There are more weak links than that! dmaxlover:D but one more down.....




Thanks for the heads up on a new product Joe!:ro)

:exactly:

Can we assume all new stage V's will come with these shafts or is there going to be an a la carte trans available.

No we can't assume that. Not everyone needs them. Yet.):h

:cool2:

Before everyone gets too out of control....

Remember, a billet shaft needs a billet drum.

I have seen the splines ripped out of the drum and the shaft is still ok.

FYI

(All the tranny mfgrs already know this though ;) )

Before everyone gets too out of control....

Remember, a billet shaft needs a billet drum.

I have seen the splines ripped out of the drum and the shaft is still ok.

FYI

(All the tranny mfgrs already know this though ;) )

No we have not seen this at all Juice.

:drop_mout :stirthepo:funnypost :agreed:

Todd.

No we have not seen this at all Juice.

Then you need to get more experience. Dodge Transmissions that upgrade to billet shafts NEED the Billet Drum.

And the Allison is no different. If you make one piece 300% stronger, the weak link becomes the splines in the hub because they ARE NOT the same yield strength as the splines in the shaft:duh: . You better do some more homework on that Mike.

IIRC Suncoast , ATS, TCI, IE, all have billet drums for the Dodge transmission. If they were not necessary as you state, you should tell all these guys to stop making them.

Juice
You are twisting things around. We are not talking Dodge here, we are talking Allison. I have only seen chatter marks from the C2 steels inside the grooves of the front rotating assembly. Maybe Absinthe should be prohibited in Canada during Allison assembly. :eek: ):h :D


P.S.
It got a little boring here so I yanked your chain.:D

Juice
You are twisting things around. We are not talking Dodge here, we are talking Allison. I have only seen chatter marks from the C2 steels inside the grooves of the front rotating assembly. Maybe Absinthe should be prohibited in Canada during Allison assembly. :eek: ):h :D

The only twisting will happen to the splines in the hub on high HP applications if you don't match the yield strength of the clutch drum splines with your output shaft splines. Mind you, they don't really twist, they tend to shear off completely.

Dodge or Allison trans does not matter. Heat treatment, yield strength and tensile strength need to be close for the entire system to work properly. Use a 3/4" schedule 8 bolt of Ni/Cro or CroVa and tighten into a piece of ordinary mild steel that has been threaded to accept the bolt. With enough torque, you can strip out the threads in the mild steel using only 80 lbsft of torque past the initial tightness.

Now if you use the same materials, with the same yield strength and tensile strength on the same test, you cannot strip out the threads using 325 lbsft of torque.

It has to work as a system if it is to work at all. I am sure Joe has the other stuff in the works as we speak:)


P.S.
It got a little boring here so I yanked your chain.:D

You did? Where?
The bell on my Alpaca didn't ring!

If you're talking about the C2 hub and P2 planet splines, they will twist because of massive tie up due to the C2 clutch overpowering the C3 clutch on a 4 to 5 upshift. This happens when pressures are high and C2 piston has been modified and TCM was not reprogrammed for these changes. Your Alli has had a number of these failures and it wasn't your driving or your twin turbos. Actually, I believe the twins to be safer on both the engine and trans than a big single.

If you're talking about the C2 hub and P2 planet splines, they will twist because of massive tie up due to the C2 clutch overpowering the C3 clutch on a 4 to 5 upshift. This happens when pressures are high and C2 piston has been modified and TCM was not reprogrammed for these changes. Your Alli has had a number of these failures and it wasn't your driving or your twin turbos. Actually, I believe the twins to be safer on both the engine and trans than a big single.


Not talking about a tie up. The subject is input shaft and drum. Stay on topic or put the sheep down.

TCM's are another topic all together.

I woudn't doubt for a minute Joe has the DWGs done for a billet drum.

Where are these input shafts breaking? If they aren't shearing the splines on the input shaft then it's not necessarily an issue. The input shaft on the allison is larger diameter then the Dodge's correct? I assume this includes where the input shaft is inserted into the hub? Is it not almost twice as large? If that is the case then the strength is greatly increased. Am I wrong?

Are you saying that you have sheared the splines on the hub juice? Got pics? How do you know it wasn't a tie up like Mike says?

I understand that the shafts are breaking but I don't think anyone has proven that the shafts are stripping the splines in the drum.

Regardless, this is the next step. We might find more weaknesses but we need to improve the next weekest link to find that out.

I am not sure if this picture is accurate or not but if it is it clearly illistrates my point.


It's late and I've had a couple too many. Hopefully I am making sense.

Are you saying that you have sheared the splines on the hub juice? Got pics? How do you know it wasn't a tie up like Mike says?

Regardless, this is the next step. We might find more weaknesses but we need to improve the next weekest link to find that out.


Had pics before comp 3 went downCensored sorry.

whats the definition of "billet"? i'd always assumed it just meant machined from metal instead of stamped or made out of plastic, but obviously the original shaft was also machined from a solid block of metal....:confused:

Had pics before comp 3 went downCensored sorry.

You mean you don't back your pictures up like everyone else in the world? ;)

DTT must have pictures?

And to top it off you threw the drum out as well? I would keep that for a trophy if it were me. Make a dog dish out of it or something.... ):h

whats the definition of "billet"? i'd always assumed it just meant machined from metal instead of stamped or made out of plastic, but obviously the original shaft was also machined from a solid block of metal....:confused:

Billet doesn't necessarily mean it's stronger. All it means is the part was made from a single large chuck of material. If the material wasn't upgraded to something stronger than stock, then no, the part will not be stronger. I bet the original was made from a forging (which is very strong) but the material forged was most likely a lower grade of steel, like 1045 or ?. I don't know if Smoop wants to disclose what kind of material he is using, but my guess is 4140 or 4340.

The billet shaft was developed for one reason only. The oem shaft can & will shear at the rear of the turbine splines. I will post photos, but for now I just dropped by the office and discovered a @#&*# son of a #%@* broke in the office and stole among other items my digital camera and $$$$. .(off subject).

This not a common ocurrence (shaft breakage, that is). This item would normally be used in competition trucks. It has absoutly nothing to do with the C2-hub/P1 planet issue that Mike correctly described.


9310 vaccu-melt

Smoop

Billet doesn't necessarily mean it's stronger. All it means is the part was made from a single large chuck of material. If the material wasn't upgraded to something stronger than stock, then no, the part will not be stronger. I bet the original was made from a forging (which is very strong) but the material forged was most likely a lower grade of steel, like 1045 or ?. I don't know if Smoop wants to disclose what kind of material he is using, but my guess is 4140 or 4340.

When very small #'s are involved, forgeing is out of the question because of the cost of die.

The OEM shaft is 8620. IMHO it fails more due to design than material. Too many people put too much emphasis on "billet". It just means the piece is from 1 peice of metal. This shaft is 9310 vacu-melt. The design, material, & heat treating is the main determination of strength.

Smoop

There was pictures in this forum some where of a broken shaft. Sorry to here about the break in Joe,that sucks.I hope you catch the theif and smack in the head with a input shaft.

I'm thinking a sharp-edged billet shaft in the bunghole would be better punishment for the theif....:mad:

There are more weak links than that! dmaxlover:D


like the drum and the planetaries and the case and the output shaft and everything else that you've broken?

Then you need to get more experience. Dodge Transmissions that upgrade to billet shafts NEED the Billet Drum.

IIRC Suncoast , ATS, TCI, IE, all have billet drums for the Dodge transmission. If they were not necessary as you state, you should tell all these guys to stop making them.

because dodge transmissions are like half the size...:)


besides Juice, has anyone broken a turbine shaft NOT at the base of the splines where it goes into the converter? the pics of broken turboine shafts that ive seen were all broken at the base of the splines and the stub had to be pulled out of the TC with a magnet. are the allison turbine shaft splines cut or forged?

They're rolled onto the shaft, with a spline roller.

The billet shaft was developed for one reason only. The oem shaft can & will shear at the rear of the turbine splines. I will post photos, but for now I just dropped by the office and discovered a @#&*# son of a #%@* broke in the office and stole among other items my digital camera and $$$$. .(off subject).

This not a common ocurrence (shaft breakage, that is). This item would normally be used in competition trucks. It has absoutly nothing to do with the C2-hub/P1 planet issue that Mike correctly described.


9310 vaccu-melt

Smoop


The good news is they caught the guy ( ex employee) the bad news is he spent all the $$ he stole on crack (go figure). However I did recover my camara and the Snap-ON Scanner that he took. Here is a photo of a broken shaft.
Smoop;)

I'm among the few that have broken both the input and output shafts on the Allison (at different times). My input shaft looks like the one Joe posted above; the output shaft was a similar break. My input shaft let go on the 4-5 shift at the track, the output shaft at the starting line.

There was some collateral damage to the housing that my input shaft goes into. What I don't know is if this damage was caused by the broken input shaft itself or if the damage was beginning to occur prior to the shaft breaking.

So if you have enough torque to break an input shaft, then you replace it with a stronger billet shaft, where is the weakness now?

Doug

A good ways down the line.. possibly P2 planetary<-> C2 clutch hub splines if you're tieing up on the 3/4 upshift badly. That's been proven!

I'm among the few that have broken both the input and output shafts on the Allison (at different times). My input shaft looks like the one Joe posted above; the output shaft was a similar break. My input shaft let go on the 4-5 shift at the track, the output shaft at the starting line.

There was some collateral damage to the housing that my input shaft goes into. What I don't know is if this damage was caused by the broken input shaft itself or if the damage was beginning to occur prior to the shaft breaking.

So if you have enough torque to break an input shaft, then you replace it with a stronger billet shaft, where is the weakness now?

Doug

Doug,

Your answer is in your post. Output shaft would be the next link. The P-2/C-2 solution can be resolved with addressing shift timing and would not necessarily mean stronger parts. The evolvement of increasing transmission capacity dictates the solutions of causes of failures as they occur.
The incidience of failure would be one of the variables in producing solutions. Another large variable would be cost. Bottom line, I don't foresee ever reaching an indestructable trans. You fix every thing you can, then the only thing left is: Go to church, tithe, & be nice to old ladies.:)
Smoop

The OEM shaft is 8620. IMHO it fails more due to design than material. Too many people put too much emphasis on "billet". It just means the piece is from 1 peice of metal. This shaft is 9310 vacu-melt. The design, material, & heat treating is the main determination of strength.

I understand your statement to mean that the shafts aren't necessarily failing due to strength but rather due to the design of them... If this is the case how are your billet shafts designed differently?

any ball park guess as to what hp levels one might wanna start looking into one of these, joe?

I have seen a great variation of power levels with broken input/output shafts. I think that all of them were a solid 550 and above though.

I have seen a great variation of power levels with broken input/output shafts. I think that all of them were a solid 550 and above though.


Agreed X2

different converters have different amounts of stress on input shaft too...

Very true, Ben!

The higher the stall the higher stall torque ratio(in most cases), which multiplies engine torque. Although there are ways to increase stall without increasing STR, like milling the stator, which just decreases efficiency to allow the rpm gain.

Chad,

In the photos of the broken shaft, note the break occurs at the end of the splines. Partly because of the method of creating the splines there is areduction of dia. (shoulder). Lack of sufficient radius in this area increases the frequency of failure. On our shaft note that there is no shoulder,thereby eliminating the area of failure. I did not intend to minimize the importance of material, it is critical also.

It is my opinion that failure occurs when the converter is locked. The shock load to the shifts are infinitly higher in this mode.

I think EVERYONE needs one of these shafts. If not in the trans, to put on your desk. Paperweight, conversation piece, etc.):h
Smoop

It is my opinion that failure occurs when the converter is locked. The shock load to the shifts are infinitly higher in this mode.

makes sense, I guess why more aggressive coupling converters (such as the 1057) are a lot easier on input shafts; at WOT from a stop, they couple a lot "closer" and more aggressively, so when the converter clutch DOES lock, input and turbine speed are already fairly close in speed...with a looser converter and big power, if the input speed is at say 2900 rpm, but because the converter is loose, turbine speed is only 2300rpm, the split-second shock to bring the speed difference to 0 is a lot more severe and hard on the input shaft than a "tighter" converter that may only have ~150rpm difference in turbine vs input speed when lockup occurs??

correct??

Yep.

Chad,

In the photos of the broken shaft, note the break occurs at the end of the splines. Partly because of the method of creating the splines there is areduction of dia. (shoulder). Lack of sufficient radius in this area increases the frequency of failure. On our shaft note that there is no shoulder,thereby eliminating the area of failure. I did not intend to minimize the importance of material, it is critical also.

It is my opinion that failure occurs when the converter is locked. The shock load to the shifts are infinitly higher in this mode.

I think EVERYONE needs one of these shafts. If not in the trans, to put on your desk. Paperweight, conversation piece, etc.):h
Smoop

Why? You looking at a new boat? ):h

Thanks for the clarification on the difference. I know you weren't trying to minimize the importance of the material but the failures I've seen and heard about didn't necessarily indicate a material failure but rather a design failure as well. When I looked at the image of your billet shaft compared to the broken shaft I couldn't make out a difference but now that you point it out I see it plainly. I was just needing confirmation on my thoughts.

Chad,

In the photos of the broken shaft, note the break occurs at the end of the splines. Partly because of the method of creating the splines there is areduction of dia. (shoulder). Lack of sufficient radius in this area increases the frequency of failure. On our shaft note that there is no shoulder,thereby eliminating the area of failure. I did not intend to minimize the importance of material, it is critical also.

It is my opinion that failure occurs when the converter is locked. The shock load to the shifts are infinitly higher in this mode.

I think EVERYONE needs one of these shafts. If not in the trans, to put on your desk. Paperweight, conversation piece, etc.):h
Smoop

That diameter of the undercut doesn't look like it's much smaller than the minor dia. of the splines. The amount of extra strength gained by not having a undercut is not even worth talking about. Why did you decide to go with 9310? It's a good material, but it can't be heat treated all the way through the part, it's only good for caburising, which take the hardnees maybe .060 deep. IMO 4340 would be a better choice, it can be heat treated all the way through the part and also nitrided in addition.

I have seen a few shafts that were snapped off the starting line. ( drag and sled pulling ) Both trucks had bigger turbos.

no better than ours is at hooking up i think we are safe

I realize this thread's moved on, but I think what Juice was trying to say in a nutshell is "a chain's only as strong as its weakest link"

While the splines aren't twisting out in the hub right now, I'd believe that to be the next likely place for breakage to occur once you strengthen the shaft to stop shearing near the converter splines

I realize this thread's moved on, but I think what Juice was trying to say in a nutshell is "a chain's only as strong as its weakest link"

While the splines aren't twisting out in the hub right now, I'd believe that to be the next likely place for breakage to occur once you strengthen the shaft to stop shearing near the converter splines

:exactly: :thankyou2

):h juice if youre still making 444 rwhp you should have nothing to worry about

):h juice if youre still making 444 rwhp you should have nothing to worry about

LMAO, nope, still at 242RWHP;)

LMAO, nope, still at 242RWHP;)

Is that with or without the JuiceGrips?):h

Is that with or without the JuiceGrips?):h


with our without DTT?):h

sorry couldnt resist Juice, you know im just bustin your chops:D

Is that with or without the JuiceGrips?):h

TWIN JUICEGRIPS(TM):ro)

with our without DTT?):h

sorry couldnt resist Juice, you know im just bustin your chops:D

I'l take my DMX with DTT:ro)

Very nice looking piece! Judging from where stock input shafts seem to break I'd think that any additional material, the elimination of the radius in addition to better material should add up to a stronger shaft. Obviously these pieces aren't needed by most but they certainly would be recommended on high HP trucks--preceived "overkill" on a race truck isn't "overkill" just good sense.

I'l take my DMX with DTT:ro)

We expected nothing less. You are a loyal friend.:cool:

I realize this thread's moved on, but I think what Juice was trying to say in a nutshell is "a chain's only as strong as its weakest link"

While the splines aren't twisting out in the hub right now, I'd believe that to be the next likely place for breakage to occur once you strengthen the shaft to stop shearing near the converter splines


The only problem with this logic is that the shaft breakage and hub splines striping has absolutley no relationship. Input shaft breakage occurs at launch, TCC engagement, or upshifts (usually 2-3 with converter locked.) C-2 spline failure occurs on 3-4 shift, the splines are not even in the picture before the 3-4 shift. Stopping input shaft breakage will niether increase nor deminish the incidence of hub spline failure or vice-versa. The chain link analogy doesn't apply to these 2 different failures.
Smoop:)

The only problem with this logic is that the shaft breakage and hub splines striping has absolutley no relationship. Input shaft breakage occurs at launch, TCC engagement, or upshifts (usually 2-3 with converter locked.) C-2 spline failure occurs on 3-4 shift, the splines are not even in the picture before the 3-4 shift. Stopping input shaft breakage will niether increase nor deminish the incidence of hub spline failure or vice-versa. The chain link analogy doesn't apply to these 2 different failures.
Smoop:)

smoop is that because the gear ratio jump from 2-3 is much less than jump from 3-4, so therefore 3-4 puts more stress on the C2 spline??

smoop is that because the gear ratio jump from 2-3 is much less than jump from 3-4, so therefore 3-4 puts more stress on the C2 spline??

It's because of the tie up during the 3-4 shift. C2 coming on before C3 is totaly released.

It's because of the tie up during the 3-4 shift. C2 coming on before C3 is totaly released.

but that doesnt really happen with allisons that are built the "NORMAL" way does it?):h

Do you consider a Trans-Go a normal upgrade?

Do you consider a Trans-Go a normal upgrade?

Nothing we are doing to our trucks is normal. ):h But it sure is fun. :ro)

smoop is that because the gear ratio jump from 2-3 is much less than jump from 3-4, so therefore 3-4 puts more stress on the C2 spline??


Ben,

The C-2 clutch & hub is only in play in 4th, 5th, & 6th. In 1st,2nd, or 3rd the trans doesn't care if the C-2 hub is even there. That is why correcting a failure that occurs in 1,2, or 3 has no correlation to C-2 spline failure.
smoop

Nothing we are doing to our trucks is normal. ):h But it sure is fun. :ro)

What EFI Live isn't ordinary?????

It's extraordinary.:ro)

More powr. More fuel economy. More fun.

Duramax/Efi Live......should steal the quote. "Inspiration comes standard." ):h

Some guys have all the fun!

That diameter of the undercut doesn't look like it's much smaller than the minor dia. of the splines. The amount of extra strength gained by not having a undercut is not even worth talking about. Why did you decide to go with 9310? It's a good material, but it can't be heat treated all the way through the part, it's only good for caburising, which take the hardnees maybe .060 deep. IMO 4340 would be a better choice, it can be heat treated all the way through the part and also nitrided in addition.

LMAO Wisconson in the house! lol

I wonder... how much this $haft is going to retail at?

LMAO Wisconson in the house! lol

I wonder... how much this $haft is going to retail at?

:confused::confused:

:confused::confused:

John, I too have a strong intrest in metals. Both of the steels mentioned are outstanding when used in the right application. However, I wouldn't go with either in this one. So I guess that makes me nuetral.

smoop - out of curiousity, are you really seeing so many broken input shafts to make this billett replacement necessary, or are they more of a "peace of mind" thing?

smoop - out of curiousity, are you really seeing so many broken input shafts to make this billett replacement necessary, or are they more of a "peace of mind" thing?

They are breaking.

They are breaking.


Only in Suncoast and ATS Trannies):h


Ok, so I've snapped a couple off in my DTT too.:lol:


On Edit: Anyone planning to go over 500RWHP should plan for a shaft and flexplate upgrade.

Cheap to do while the transmission is out... not so cheap to re and re the trans to do a retrofit.

I know they're breaking, and I agree its much easier & more cost-effective to do it up front than to have to pull everything back out & do it later. I was just curious if this is something that he's seeing a lot outside of the more aggressively used applications

John, I too have a strong intrest in metals. Both of the steels mentioned are outstanding when used in the right application. However, I wouldn't go with either in this one. So I guess that makes me nuetral.

Opie, what mat'l would you recommend? I like 4340 because it's readily available just about anywhere, it's relatively cheap, it machines great, heat treating options are endless, the strength is very high in a heat treated state, and ect. I can't off hand think why 4340 would not be a good choice in this application.

I know 4340 Chromo axle shafts are the poop for rock crawling. Can't say if that qualifies if for this application or not though. I would think the requirements would be similar for both.

I'd like to see them made from recycled AMC's and early Chevy S-10's: D

Seriously though, one can second guess, criticise, and say "this is how I would do it" but until you actually do something it appears Suncoast is the only one taking the initiative. There aren't a lot of these breaking and it would be just as easy for Smoop to sit back and wait for someone else to do it as it is to second guess him.

Thank you Joe. I for one appreciate the effort. I haven't found the need for one yet, but it's good to know that one's available...

I'd like to see them made from recycled AMC's and early Chevy S-10's: D

Seriously though, one can second guess, criticise, and say "this is how I would do it" but until you actually do something it appears Suncoast is the only one taking the initiative. There aren't a lot of these breaking and it would be just as easy for Smoop to sit back and wait for someone else to do it as it is to second guess him.

Thank you Joe. I for one appreciate the effort. I haven't found the need for one yet, but it's good to know that one's available...
:exactly:

I'd like to see them made from recycled AMC's and early Chevy S-10's: D

Seriously though, one can second guess, criticise, and say "this is how I would do it" but until you actually do something it appears Suncoast is the only one taking the initiative. There aren't a lot of these breaking and it would be just as easy for Smoop to sit back and wait for someone else to do it as it is to second guess him.

Thank you Joe. I for one appreciate the effort. I haven't found the need for one yet, but it's good to know that one's available...

John
I like the old AMC's especialy when they were called Nashes and Ramblers.

John
I like the old AMC's especialy when they were called Nashes and Ramblers.

You are aged like fine cheese!

You are aged like fine cheese!

Bob
Are you insinuating that I'm an old ps? ):h You might be correct. :eek: :D

Nothing beats the AMC Eagle. That was the true 1st sport utility wagon. I wanted one so badly.

Now, back to the topic, sorry.

Joe, I too appreciate your initiative and will surely have these parts in my next trans.

Agree with Kennedy!

As usual there's a bunch of "shoulda, woulda, coulda experts out here who are always there to share there vast expertise (on all subjects). I would recommend to Joe (Suncoast) that he first post any new ideas on the board so he could draw from this knowledge base.):h

Bob
Are you insinuating that I'm an old ps? ):h You might be correct. :eek: :D


Nashes and Ramblers...yeah...you're old!

Nashes and Ramblers...yeah...you're old!

I used to ride on horse drawn produce wagons in Chicago growing up.

what about the Dodge Dynasty's? Those were pretty cool cars back in the day :ro)

I used to ride on horse drawn produce wagons in Chicago growing up.


C'mon, you really expect us to believe that horses were invented that long ago?):h

All it needs is a trans.....

http://www.bmdmax.com/nash2.jpg

All it needs is a trans.....

http://www.bmdmax.com/nash2.jpg

That would be the ultimate tail wagging the dog or should I say puppy.:D

So, this shaft is part of the SC level IV+ kit, right?

My reference to AMC's and early S-10's is because they rotted away in short order in the Midwest as did/do most imports up until even the most recent models...