I have a little experiment I have been thinking on, that I finally got around to doing with the infamous FSD, maybe old ground already covered maybe not.


In Jan 04 I had a FSD "go bad", shut me down on the highway on a return trip from my hunting camp about 2 hours into the 2.5 hr return trip, outside temp was 50F, FSD mounted on a cooler was cool to the touch but would not let the truck start, it had stumbled a couple of times before shutting down, 1 restart then no start. At the time that FSD had about 50K on it, swapped to the new spare I carry and came home. New spare has about 10 K mi on it.


I got home and cleaned up the Bad FSDs transistor mount studs , nuts, to remove any oxidation that might be present, and re-torqued to 10" lb, I slaved it in and truck started right up, it became my spare.


With all the debate it's heat, its loose fasteners, I decided to run an experiment but did not get to it today. Bad FSD reinstalled at 84200, now at 84212mi no problems, will long road test tomorrow.


I took "bad" FSD and; reinstalled it on the cooler, but I 1st filed a small groove in it's base to accommodate a thermocouple wire that touches one of the transistor bases just to see how hot these things actually get and how long will this "bad" one hang in there.


My cooler is mounted on drivers side fender in pocket/bracket where a gassers washer fluid tank goes.


My engine was warm I had been road testing brakes after installing new stainless braided brake lines, I had run it for about 15 minutes. I only have 1 thermocouple so I don't know under-hood temp, ambient air was 80 F.


1st run was 15 minutes with engine at idle, hood down FSD at 96F starting went to 144.8 F in 15 minutes


I shut down the engine for 25 min and temp had dropped to 119.3


I restarted engine and drove for 10 min city traffic 0-50 mph temp varied 135-139


Shut down for another 6 min temp went to 131, restarted and within 4 min 40 sec temp rose to 151.6


Shut down engine after 6 min of driving 0-50 and engine was 150.7


After 42 minutes FSD had cooled to 129.3


After 2 hr 10 minutes FSD was 116 deg


Truck restarted FSD 7min 45 sec 116F up to 133 F 0-50 driving approx 2 miles


shutdown for evening FSD after 30 min back to 118


Will collect more data in AM, I'll also be collecting some numbers on IP PMD location later


Edited by: Turbine Doc

which PMD are you testing? There seem to be some characteristical differences between different generations. the first (30214) is so bad and so obsolete its not worth discussing. The second (34264) is actually what I run on my truck. The reason is because I find the third generation (34583) more prone to cause an intermittent stalling problem, which never really happened to the 2nd gen, it was more like a light bulb, it works, then it dies. just thought I'd throw that out there. besides, I can get a box of the 2nd gen for free so spares arent a problem, but I have over 100k on this one PMD (which by the way is mounted on the pump)


I for one will be very interested to see your results. (especially when you compare it to the factory location)Edited by: Texas Diesel Guy

I have a 34583 driver, what generation is that?

FYI -


I installed a used (warranty failure) 34583 on my '95 (5288) pump, Fall of ought one - still going strong, after performing a little magic on it....


If you can get a box of those, you might want to hang on to them, also. Appears to be a simple fix for any model.


Also just installed the 2000 '5521 inj pump I had removed that PMD from - everything ok, so far

texas diesel guy: how much do you want for one of those second generation (34264) pmd's? i would be very interested in purchasing one if the price is reasonable.

I wouldn't mind a spare, what's the possibility on the second gen. driver?

Okay I made a run yesterday 6-27-04 to my hunting camp I collected some interesting data. Basically the truck ran for 8 hrs start and stop hi way and woods crawling in 4wd . (Edit transistor after overnight was 100F)


I have 2 latest gen FSDs (34583s) the "resurrected one" as of yesterday had 343 mi on it, I put another 70 miles on it today so I'm up to 413 since retorqueing transistor nuts. Yesterday it was 88F outside today 91. Engine max temp was 192F and fuel temp was 140-144F


With temp probe in transistor cavity, and FSD cool plate mounted on driver side fender as before test I recorded following data:


After 85 minutes of driving temp at hi-way speed 70-75 transistor 135- 150, I shut off truck temp dropped to 147 after 7 min shutdown I restarted the truck after 3 minutes temp peaked up to 170.


Temp gradually reduced after 8 minutes back to 151 and varied 138-150 depending on speed for remainder of the trip 0-75mph about an additional 1.5 hr. total of about 2.5 hr of heated engine/FSD.


Once at the camp I had to shift to 4H gear crawled thru woods, stopping here and there to clear old dead falls across the road, the truck was left idling during time to clear falls, about 30 minutes on camp road I arrived at my cabin, 0-10 mph driving FSD temp was 213.5 and slow rising .1 deg every 3 sec when I shutdown.


I popped the hood to get some surface temps, after removing temp probe from FSD cavity the cool plate surface/fins was 185F 4 min after shutdown, temp on intake manifold was 178F after 10 min FSD plate was same.


I restarted the truck about 1 hr later for return trip this time with temp probe on intake at hi-way speed 70-75; intake temp was 187 within 15 minutes, FSD Plate/fins very cool 108-113 F, engine compartment at hi-way speed 160F just above engine aft of IP.


I relocated temp probe to base of the inactive PMD still installed there, (I have 2 spares 1 in glove box and 2nd like new on IP). temp at it's base at hi-way speed within 7 minutes went 153F to 169 F following the shut down to change location, I ran for another 40 minutes with probe here.


I then stopped with engine idling then slow drive for 2 miles @ 30 mph max IP/PMD was 165, FSD cooler surface temp was 138F


Initial conclusions from this are the FSD cooler does reduce transistor temp, with good airflow FSD even cool to touch. Further away from engine is better, probably outside engine bay is best. Right now I only have 1 set of transistor cavity readings, to nail this down some more I'll move the cool plate to the intake manifold and run same test with temp probe in transistor cavity.


Then I might move to the IP but it's such a PITA to get the PMD swapped over, last test I'll run is on a long extension into the cab to see if harness length is a contributor. I might also get a second temp probe from Sears so I can make better comparison without "skewing" result from frequent hood openings.


I think as we have found in past 2 fail modes at work heat itself 213 + on a transistor is darn hot, and loosening of mounting from heat/cool contraction/expansion reducing "clamping force" and giving poor ground to transistor base.


stay tuned folks more to follow.


Edited by: Turbine Doc

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Thanks for the info....I think this kind of confirms my personal opinion that the FSD NEEDS TO MOUNTED OUT OF THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. I believe if you put them some where engine heat wont cook them on shut down we miay have better longevity. But, that just MHO.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

why dont you just mount it inside the airbox, in front of the filter and let the engine pull air across the fins? Maybe there's some obvious drawback to this that I'm missing, just a thought... I'll see if I cant round up a handful of drivers, If I get them I'll sell them cheap (like freight + $20), but if I take a lot I'll have to sneak them out the back door you understand.Edited by: Texas Diesel Guy

that sounds good texas diesel guy. that price works fine for me.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifI would be interested in one at that price too. If it's ok for a newbie to speak-up here

texas diesel guy: if you do get any of those drivers, you can contact me at stein.160@osu.edu. thanks.

Texas Diesel Guy, I would be interested in the 2nd gen unit as well. Don't mean to be a burden. email is modified_bob@hotmail.com. Thanks!

Can someone please tell me how to get the pmd unplugged and get enough slack to mount the pmd out of the pit from h**l?

I also would like one of those cheep spares. I just paid 300.00 for a replacement.

GEEO,


I removed the upper intake and set it aside to get a better look at things. If you do this be sure to unplug the temp sensor from the top and the turbo control connector on the right side. loosen the rightmost turbo outlet clamp and slide it off at union. When replacing the upper intake the torque spec is 17 ft-lbs, tighten in criss-cross pattern then come back for the middle 2 bolts.


Once you can see the danged connector from above (I used a small step ladder and then kneeled on core support), use a long, regular tip screwdriver to gently push retainer clip towards drivers side. Once it is pranged use same or another small-bladed screwdriver to VERY carefully remove connector. Then use a bent piece of coathanger to fish the connector out. Good luck !

I installed the Kennedy PMD Relocator and mounted it near left fender. I drilled an extra hole the cooler flange to get it to bolt to existing factory threaded holes. Only problem with Kennedy kit is he supplies longish M8 bolts that will not work when mounting cooler in this fashion (they are for mounting to intake manifold) - use M8x25mm.


I drove around and was amazed how fast the cooler was warmed by the PMD - hear transfer is definitely happening, wish I could install a total-loss water mist to spritz the fins of the cooler periodically.


With all this talk of the HEAT effect on the PMD, I am relieved with relocating the PMD and subjecting it to far less VIBRATION.

Bob T,Thanks for the info.I wish the factory had left a little more slack in the harness. I bought a 300 watt audio amp from the local pawn shop for the heat sink.
Mounted the pmd now called the intake mounted driver imd
to the heat sink and mounted it to the intake via steel bracket.Works great. THANKS!

Reading all your info trying to solve my own problem. My PMD (or FSD) is now located in my cab under the dash where I can keep an eye on it and it's temp. I have a temp guage mounted to the side of the PMD and it has gotten to be more than 220 without shutting down in two months. The last two days I am getting classin failure signs again with temps under 120. I think it has worn out, I will take it apart again and check connections internally. If you guys can get cheap replacements or spares you can contact me at blglau@juno.com.


Input appreciated -


Thanks

Update,
1325 mi and still going, put to ultimate test weekend before last, as hot under the hood as I've seen since I've owned this truck.

Towing my backhoe home from camp est. 18K towed weight 6K GN trailer, 12K backhoe; 101F 100% humidity MS day 50 mi short of 170 mi trip lower IC hose popped off for 2nd time that day just prior to cresting top of huge bridge(not sure of the incline at least 6 deg grade) I-65 South just 20 mi North of Mobile AL. "Dolly Parton" bridge to some, because of 2 side by side humps you get the idea.

Went from 45mph to 10 mph nearly instantly like loosing half an engine without any turbo boost, fortunately I had enough fwd momentum to make it over the top.

After getting arms burnt 1st time I fixed it that day I decided no more big hills left I'd finish drive home without turbo, I did not have temp probe with me but it was so hot under hood nothing could be touched for long, burns on arm still have light scab coming off.

Major Wrong decision to limp home that way, while I had no long hills left, I did have many little ones with long pulls in them; ever try to pull 18K stopped with basically 1/2 an engine; it ain't purty, once rolling I was able to hang in about 40-50 mph.

Getting rolling or climbing grade was hard part 5-10 mph and a long string of P/O-ed folks behind me, fortunately I was on back farm roads at the time this was happening folks sort of used to it.

H20 was getting hot up to 225F, trans fluid in pan was 200, EGT was 900 post turbo, IAT 250. when on the throttle hard making plenty of black smoke, I looked like one of those tractor pulling sleds(Guess I was one sort of).

I made the rest of the trip home windows down, heater on max hot to pull off some heat, and when buddy following radioed "heavy black smoke" backed off throttle, no sense in wasting the fuel it weren't doing no good making smoke.

All in all I survived, but at the end of the trip I was wrung out. Without the mods in my sig I doubt it would have been possible, the 83mm in Heath reflash I saw on the scanner makes heaps of black smoke without the turbo assisting.

Someone in another thread asked how tight to torque the FSD transistor nuts, using a quality in lb torque wrench and progressive torque I torqued to 10 in lb, I used progressive torque 2-4-6-8-10 in lbs as material under transistor is somewhat compressable, so rather than load up one side stage torqued, so far so good.

Will keep posted as time goes on.

Any Ford 535 tractor techs out there, reason for dragging backhoe home is to fix it, it won't go fwd or reverse, no trans fluid pressure, I suspect torque converter or modulator, no trans fluid making it thru the cooler/filter.

TDG, I'd also like to get a spare PMD --- can be shipped to an address in the US and then shipped over to me, so shipping isn't a problem.


TDoc, sorry to hear you had some trouble on your trip!

Have you considered to put a fan on the heatsink of the PMD? Sooner or later, I'll put a second fan on mine; it's mounted on fender, drivers side, blue relays are fog lamps and OPS, fan is powered from OPS relay. Maybe I can put a temp sensor on the heat sink and report the temps ...


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/8DD_FSD-cut.jpg


PMD is in front, fan in the back, so second fan will be placed over PMD --- you can leave the fan(s) running all the time if you wish, they draw only minimal current.
Edited by: 0lee

Nuthin I could not handle, just one of those things that happen, partly my fault, I went cheap on the clamps, t-bolt clamps IMO only way to go everything else is second best. Especially if you plan on running at elevated boost levels, I was peaking 12-13 psi.


As far as fans go; yes they would help, but blowing hot engine compartment air across them will only produce limited result but better than no flow when stopped or crawling along going slow.


I'm thinking of a Heath bumper mount kit, or toying with idea cutting a hole in the fender and having heat sink fins protrude into wheel well area (Triggerman's Idea over at TDP). I'm on the fence about locating in the cab under the AC duct what if AC is broke or it's too cold, hot transistor and cold air may not be a good idea.


Better maybe to use outside air which be closer to transistor operating temp but still enough delta to transfer heat. It's been a while since I looked at my thermodynamics notes from turbine school so I might have it all wrong here, but from my Navy days on water to steam, oil, & bleed air heat exchangers if we put too much cold water in the coolers we actually overtemped and hammered/cold shocked the condenser.


Can we cool the heat sink too much and actually reduce a heat sinks capability to dissipate heat, I don't know just thinking out loud, from my discussions with Bill Heath his results show that cab mounted FSD were not as long lived as his bumper mounted ones maybe this is why.


Another possibility since we now have found that loose transistor mount screws can be a contributor in sporadic FSD operation, maybe as a result of large temps swings that would come from cold AC air vs cooler ambient air may be exercising and loosening fasteners over time. Also what about condensation causing connection contact point oxidation, as nuts try to maintain bonding plane especially in location as MS with 60+% humidity year round.


I think there are several fail modes for the FSD no one fix addresses all, and depending where you live may also impact results. Heat #1 problem, loose fasteners #2, combined heat and loose over time #3, faulty/weak transistor # 4, corrosion/gnd plane problems#5 order of occurance a guess on my part from reading posts here and TDP over the years.

TDoc,

imho optimal PMD cooling would be like that:


+ mount PMD on a cooling block with a clamp, like CPU fans
+ install a radiator behind the grille
+ flow coolant water through the cooling block and the radiator with a water pump


This won´t get the PMD below ambient temp and involves quite some work, but can it be done any better without creating problems?

what if you mounted it inside one of the "nostrils" on the bumper. i really need to buy a digital camera it would make this much easier.


mount the fsd cooler perpendicular to the bumper so that the incoming air ran across the fins but was not obstructed.

steiner, the idea isn't bad, but the PMD will get much water and dirt onto it. I've been thinking about cutting a hole into the bumper that exactly fits the heat sink, but if something hits the bumper, the heat sink and eventually the FSD could be damaged. Maybe cut a hole into the fender and plug it with the heat sink ... At least, it would look cool ;)

With the right sealing compound risk of water intrusion should be minimal, Bill Heath says he ran his submerged in water for a while just to prove to himself his would work (he is using a proprietary compound though).


I'd try maybe in bumper holes fins in air stream, FSD mounted opposite from air side, verify proper torque on transistor nuts and FSD to cooler screws, then seal seam at joint between the 2 with hi-temp rtv, GE type 106 red is a good one we use to hold turbine compressor shrouds in place, Permatex red looks to be very close to that, be sure bonding surface is oil free before applying it.

Water might come in through the plug, and I'd get all the salt onto it in the winter ...

Today was a hot day, and the heatsink on the fender doesn't seem to do better than catch heat from the underhood air, plus heat from PMD. It became so hot I could not really touch it. Maybe the fan aids in catching heat rather than in getting rid of it ...

It should not become so hot ... second fan won't help on hot days ... hmmmm ...

Olee I doubt water intrusion will be a problem with the connector if you have a proper GM Weather-Pak connector, it wiil be tight those are the same connectors used under your trucks frame that hook up everything, lights, lift pump, trans, 4x4 transfer case, if water & muck under there does not get in those you won't have a problem on the FSD.

Try it over IN the passenger-side fender, Lee, where the intake sleeve was.


Should get cooler air over the module, there, where air flow to the compressor intake is cooler than engine bay heat.

Broke it again, made it 2300 mi before it quit again; evidently GMCTD and I "broke it" on our wild ride http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13372&PN=1


When I got up to drive back the morning after our wild ride; the truck fired and died 1st attempt, I swapped to my spare PMD and it started right up, on a whim I reinstalled the "suspect" PMD the truck restarted, I drove it to the front of the hotel about 300yd and shut down, when I tried to restart no joy; crank no start. I drove home with the spare on the fender mounted FSD cooler, I haven't started to TS the suspect FSD yet, need my good tq wrench from the office.

Okay it's "fixed" again (suspect FSD) haven't driven anywhere yet, but started restarted about 10 times in the driveway revving engine up and down. Now reinstalled at 86987 mi will see how long it lasts.


I goofed I did 2 things at same time & now don't know which "fixed it" I should have tried one before the other. 1st thing I did was read the calibration resistor, I got intermittent reading (don't know if it was me trying to hold FSD and read pins at same time or oxidized pins).


This is a #9 83ohm, on the back side of the plastic holder there was some slight brown discoloration (Heat caused ???). I sprayed the cavity & resistor with Blue Shower contact cleaner & let dry fully before reinstalling resistor in the cavity.


2nd thing I did was re-check torque of transistor nuts, they were looser than the 10" lbs I had torqued them to previously. 1 only took 5" lbs before starting to retorque, 2 took 7"lbs, and the last took 8". All are at 10" lbs again, will see how long they hold up.

the resistor is platinum, it might have corrosion from the pins but shouldn't corrode itself.


Ive moved my FSD to the front of the radiator. the cooling plate is cool to the touch at all times except when you shut the engine down it warms a little.

Platinum ???


Looks to be a std resistor to me , conductor wrapped thru contact holes only 2 contact points at the wire,


my #5 resistor is a little different configured no std resistor looks like an IC chip marked 1782, better contacts 360 contact around FSD pin.


See photos:


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/25Z_DCP00575.JPG


Does not appear to be platinum I could be wrong, while checking this over I remembered something JK had said before, and I had done once already, Cal resistor does not become and issue until relearn is initiated, the truck will start missing the resistor I just started mine without it, so my "fix" has to be associated with the loose transistor nuts not resistor contact cleaning.Edited by: Turbine Doc

you can see where the OEM resistor was on the left.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/E81_7resistor.jpg


My camara doesn't do close ups but your's looked like this before.

QM look to see if your camera has a MACRO setting if so use that for close ups.


Looks like my #5 but not like my #9 don't know what significance is like I said it could be Platinum, silver colored metal is all I see on the board part but looks to be a IC chip in between.


Okay more observations


I just re initiated time set and TDC learn both; with resistor removed no problems starting truck, is it possible extension harness is providing enough extra resistance to keep PCM from setting a bad/no resistor code anybody know resistance value of a #1 calibration resistor,

If the harness is providing resistance anybody want to speculate what effect if any it is having on fuel delivery.
Edited by: Turbine Doc

The surface-mount resistor is a block of ceramic with sprayed-on metallic resistive film, solder ends.


Discrete is same, with axial leads crimped on, epoxy sealed, appears to be 8200\5%


1782 would be 17,800

Put your #5 back, or a lower one and bump the optic sensor instead, you'll get the fuel you want, and sharper timing and longer PMD life all at the same time.

I recently removed my delphi weatherpak connectors and buttend connectors and sodered everything. I had not run my #7 untill I put in the 5288 pump gmctd donated and the fuel solenoid acted up.


Does disconnecting the battery initiate learn?

If the PCM is powered down long enough (5 min or so) it will relearn the new resistor value.

TDG


I just did the batt disconnected trick (20 min), and restarted without a cal resistor hoping to set a code or see some change, no difference seen or codes.


On OBDII, I think but am not 100% sure, in order to learn the new cal res. value you must initiate a TDC learn or time set, which I have done but was unsuccessful in making any change while on the extension harness, I'll play with it some more tomorrow


It's done got dark on me plus the wife is asking "what are you doing to your truck now???"


I'm behind in my "honey dos" and tinkering with my truck doesn't garner me any honey do credit, when hunting season come in a couple of months from now.Edited by: Turbine Doc

Put your #5 back, or a lower one and bump the optic sensor instead, you'll get the fuel you want, and sharper timing and longer PMD life all at the same time.





I'll back TDG on that. Fuel and timing are improved, truck will run cooler.


but TD has 1.50 tdc offset, right? how would that be affected by optical bump, but i guess you're capable of changing it with TDC learn.


Extra resistance in the connector(corrosion)or harness length would cause the FSD to stay enegized longer heating it more. did you get to read mdhorbans post on the construction of the electrical components. it's already page 3-4.Edited by: quantum mechanic

The bigger problem with corrosion/resistance would be heat and possiblity of burning out the contacts of the harness, seen that happen.

I think it's dead lasted 44K or so mi in it's life time, it moved a grand total of 50' this morning before stalling and stopping and restarting, back to the spare, so unless somebody has better ideas of what to check maybe time for a burial ceremony RIP little FSD http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Could be Emitter\Base pins have worked loose at the solder-connection to the pcb from heat-cool cycles and the re-torquing procedures.


Might try removing the potting compound around the four leads, resolder the connections.


Emitters are parallel to isolated power via very low resistances, Bases are darlington driven parallel via 390ohms - either way, no workee.


Parallel Collectors (case) are shorted together thru stainless fasteners to pcb circuit, to FSD coil - should measure direct short between cases and fasteners to FSD pin B.


Be good to de-pot that failure for further investigation, after trying the solder re-flow job on the transistors.

I have my PMD mounted in the fender behind the drivers side battery like a lot of others, but I have my PMD UP instead of the heat sink to make it easier to tighten the PMD on the cooler, which I do frequently.

gave in on this one went with Bill Heath's kit now mounted on bumper behind liscence plate, time will tell. Edited by: Turbine Doc
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15663&highlight=bumper+mount

how important is the heat sink? would the pmd be ok if it was out in the open gettin cold fresh air on it without the heat sink? i was just thinkin about where to mount one at today and i thought why not mount it right in the nostril. mount it right to one of the removable black plastic pieces. there it would be getting constant fresh air and it also wouldn't be blocking the hole enough to really block air going to the radiator. just curious about what you guys think.

hmmm poor little PMD, I was just about to suggest you TIG weld the nuts inplace after retorquing them


Or even JB Weld them...Edited by: Bumpin' Yota

Sorry for getting involved in this discussion this late, but a couple of things strike me about the whole PMD reliability issue. First is heat gradient, or the rate of temperature increase and along with that the associate rate of thermal expansion. "Mean time between failures" as it is known is the typical number of cycles that any given component or assembly can withstand. In electronics, the steeper the heat gradient (faster it heats) the shorter the typical reliability is. When I originally diagnosed my PMD problem months ago, I was shocked by how quickly it heats.


This leads to my next observation. From what I understand, the PMD is just a big Darlington transistor where one transistor triggers the other to discharge current. With the thermal expansion what it is, is the PMD failure a mechanical failure of the components due to heat-related open conditions or is it electrical perforation (shorting)? Given these circumstances (and no I don't know how many amps the PMD is actually moving), would it not make more sense for some aftermarket company to produce a replacement oversize PMD with some mega-transistors that are not always operating on the thermal fringe? I know the folks at A1 Cardone very well...perhaps I'll mention the challenge.


Jim

I got a question earlier today where does one mount a Heath FSD if equipped with a under bumper IC. see photo link above here where I mounted mine.

I got a question earlier today where does one mount a Heath FSD if equipped with a under bumper IC. see photo link above here where I mounted mine.

Well that is broke, I guess that is one of the photos that did not make the trip to the new forum format update last year, I'll get a photo later and add it to the post, anyway I mounted it behind the front tag.

Pics of Heath remote mounted to bumper

Nice Install, Tim.

Nice shiny dome you got there.

Little humor...

So you are actually using your Licence plate as the "heat sink"? Thats pretty cool, i will do that when santa clause brings me my intercooler.

I just installed my heath remote as per instructions on the skid plate and I am very pleased. Ran it hard as I could for a while and the PMD was almost ice cold.

I am a firm believer that the PMD needs to outa the engine compartment. My SS cooler got me through a winter and a summer but was dying.

I also think that under normal driving conditions the PMD doesnt generate that much heat...It has to be underhood temps that isnt helping.

BTW Turbine, your tech2 and mt 2500 values are correct. Had my buddy at the GM dealership set my timing at -1.94 excactly and I got to watch the process...took him about 4 trys. Then I hooked up the 2500 and found a offset of -5.5. anyway, sorry:offtopic:

I also noticed a smoother idle, better throttle responce and power just with PMD remote installed but I am sure it was because my other Pmd was a foot in the grave.

BOTTOM LINE...GET YOUR PMD OUTA THE FRIGGIN HOOD COMPARTMENT!

BOTTOM LINE...GET YOUR PMD OUTA THE FRIGGIN HOOD COMPARTMENT!
Doesn't mine qualify as outta the engine compartment, you can't get it any cooler sucking air across it all the time can you?

Ditto on the shiny dome!!! (don't worry Tim i'm right there with ya!)

OK.OK, maybe I should have said.

GET YOUR FRIGGIN PMD SOMEWHERE COOLER!!!!!!

Also, I forgot to mention in my earlier thread that I think TD is right about the torque values.
Maybe thats the reason you get a few lucky dudes that have 500,000 miles on the PMD thats still mounted to the IP.

BTW, we need to to start a shiny dome poll.... because I'm right there you guys. I'm 28 years old and my heads smooth as a babys butt. LOL!! Runs in the family, cant help it. But proud of it.

So you are actually using your Licence plate as the "heat sink"? Thats pretty cool, i will do that when santa clause brings me my intercooler.

BOTTOM LINE...GET YOUR PMD OUTA THE FRIGGIN HOOD COMPARTMENT!

No what you are seeing is the back side of the Heath heat sink plate, FSD sitting facing aft into the notched out area of plastic I cut out of the front plate mount. I used supplied washers to keep FSD from contacting the bumper, the tag keeps the bugs off the back side of the cooler plate, but it sure isn't going to overheat in that location, and has literally "weathered it" almost 2 years there in every environmental condition in the USA.

As far as chromed hat rack I sport; God made some perfect heads; on the others he covered completely with hair.

Oh, i see it now. BTW, I like your licence plate....if its still the same one in your faqs intercooler thread. :) Thanks TD.

Is this a bald confessional? My dad's there with ya! turns out it's your mother's father fault.

If those PMD come around TDG keep me in mind.

Another GOOD spot is where the "prop-wash" from the fan is strong - it sort of fans out behind the cowling. I mounted mine from the bottom of the driver's side battery tray - it sticks out slightly, and right into the prop-wash.

I bought one of those cheap Wal-Mart inside-outside thermos & placed the thermo-couple right on the FSD cooler. Temperatures, at that spot, range from 10 to 20 degrees F. above ambient, even when towing.

Others have run the extension all the way out to the bumper, which also works great!!

Oh, i see it now. BTW, I like your licence plate....if its still the same one in your faqs intercooler thread. :) Thanks TD.

yes same tag

Another GOOD spot is where the "prop-wash" from the fan is strong - it sort of fans out behind the cowling. I mounted mine from the bottom of the driver's side battery tray - it sticks out slightly, and right into the prop-wash.

I bought one of those cheap Wal-Mart inside-outside thermos & placed the thermo-couple right on the FSD cooler. Temperatures, at that spot, range from 10 to 20 degrees F. above ambient, even when towing.

Others have run the extension all the way out to the bumper, which also works great!!

Inside the airbox is probably the best location IMO always cool airflow as long as turbo is sucking it air, radiator fan still is getting extra heat across rad, oil & trans coolers. Heath setup is too big to fit there so I opted for bumper mount, with IC in Heath's recommended mounting location

Good info, My conclusion was the worst case for PMD temps was climbing a steep
hill in 2nd gear. No airflow under hood untill Fan kicks in.

That is why I mounted mine under the dash inside the cab. Cut a hole in the air box, plumbed in a pvc elbow which is directed at the pmd cooler ( also fan cooled ).

24 inch cable has not been a problem, PMD stays below 110 degrees F,
And I can test spares very easily....

billbenntx - try the thermometer on that location in the fan wash sitting in slow traffic, hot summer day, ac burning, or sitting at a traffic lite, same conditions.

Also, after you've shut the engine off for a bit, restarted a short while later.

Below the battery tray is somewhat better than most, but other side of the radiator bulkhead is much better, as the above stated conditions - slow, stopped, and heat-soak, are the killer.

Testing them bare on the teststand in a 80 degree room, the PMD's will top 200 degrees when the pump is wide open. Some more than others.

Here are some reading's from my re-mote mount PMD on vendor heat sink mounted on driver side fender.
60 degree temp air-------PMD 89 deg at 70mph.
'' '' '' '' ------PMD 110 deg at 30 mph city driving.
These reading's were all taken while towing a 18' fishing boat.

Pictures, Pictures, Pictures,
Who has pictures of their PMD mounting.

http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3146
Top right corner on a tiny piece of aluminum.

I knew where yours was QM. Have you ever taken temps on that thing ?

Testing them bare on the teststand in a 80 degree room, the PMD's will top 200 degrees when the pump is wide open. Some more than others.
I can vouch for 240+

Has anyone tried just monitoring Fuel Temps with the PMD mounted on the pump? That would be an interesting comparo IMHO.

Assuming the fuel temp on my scanner is same I've never seen over 150, what needs to be monitored though is transistor cavity while mounted on IP.

Something to think about though, even if you had 100% heat rejection from fuel as desired by the General, the coolest without taking into account of heat generated by the transistor would be the temp of fuel so 130-150F.

The fuel "coolant" alone; with driver mounted on IP heats up the driver, then add engine radiated heat and transistor generated heat and you have to scratch your head just what was GM thinking. I know several of you pump guys beg to differ, but significant showing of evidence is the number of fails FSDs mounted off the IP seem to fail less than those mounted on IP, so long as they are not moved for a hot location to another hot location.

I mounted mine in front of radiator and its never been too hot to touch with bare fingers and has gone 20K since installing

TDG I would also be interested in getting one of the 2nd gen PMD at that price if you get some. Please let me know. Thanks

Here are some reading's from my re-mote mount PMD on vendor heat sink mounted on driver side fender.
60 degree temp air-------PMD 89 deg at 70mph.
'' '' '' '' ------PMD 110 deg at 30 mph city driving.
These reading's were all taken while towing a 18' fishing boat.

Went for a 80 mile drive this afternoon and the temp's stayed about the same without towing,so after supper i moved it in the location of Quantium's air filter and took it out for another run and all temps dropped about 20 degree's.

i have one question, if the pmd fails and car stalls, and car starts again, will it make an error code??

any one know?

i have one question, if the pmd fails and car stalls, and car starts again, will it make an error code??

any one know?
Not always:(

That's the beauty of a PMD failure. You're always left guessing until you change it.

I will say, check for fuel supply issues, ignition switch problems, and other things first. Click below for FAQ's in the signature line (link to top sticky in this forum) and update your signature (with year etc) so we can help you pin point your issue better. Thanks!

With all discussion lately on driver fails, a "HOT" :eek: summertime recurring topic, I thought I'd bump this back to the top of the pile.

Bumping back to the top again, just saw another post asking hot hot does it get, and how long before I fail.

There is no known when it will fail, some have gone 200+K without failure, but preponderance of evidence has been much lower incidence with those mounted off pump out of engine bay, my choice has been Heath mount on the back side of my liscence plate, 7yr warranty was final selling point.

From my experience a "used but good" driver is just that with emphasis on used, the driver distress is cumulative IMO, depending on mfr of the transistor and the quality to which they were built to are the reason some last longer than others, if going used but good route even remote mounted, carry a spare, as these things never fail at a good time. That said even with my new store bought Heath driver I still carry a spare, fortunately after a year since installing it, I've not needed it.

I have post mortumed quite a few PMD's,
Most of the transisters OHM as good, ( Really need a test unit to be sure )
Did find 1 bad transister, obvious crack in silicon substrate ( OHM 'd bad )

My opinion is the failure mechanisim is the solder joints of the transister/circuit board.
This accounts for the ' tightning the nuts ' fixing some PMD's ( my opinion ,movement of transister lead in circuit board re-establishes continuity )

Stanadyne dealer says much less failure rate on latest PN..( but the catch is latest )
won't really know untill a few years down the road....and with so many remote PMD's
, any improvement in quality , will probably remain a mystery

Just my WAG

I read this entire thread, and was wondering if I can get college credits for it??:lol: I had a question to add, if the PMD mount nuts seem to back out over time, causing failure issues, why not use LockTite during the initial tourqe down to keep them tight? Thanks

This is probably completely off thread but my friend is a master machinist and we are thinking of machining a block of aluminum into a hollow PMD cooler that will install into the fuel line after but near the frame rail lift pump. The idea is to machine it so that fuel will flow through the aluminum block and wick the PMD heat through convection into the fuel similar to the present pump mounted solution used by Stanadyne.

When the truck is shutoff I believe that the aluminum reservoir will have enough thermal capacity to absorb the resulting transient temperature rise of the PMD while it cools. I am seriously considering this idea unless you guys can see some obvious flaw in this.

I’m not worried about seam leaks; we will build enough internal structure to secure the lid. The fuel temperature will rise before it hits the fuel filter casing but the rise should be relatively low and it won’t be any higher than the present factory setup and I think the thermal capacity of the aluminum device will prevent the PMD temperature from spiking on shutdown. Of course I’ll use proper fuel line for this adventure.

Anyway, aside from expense what do you guys think.

Sounds better than the factory set up but still more complicated than a finned aluminum heat sink.

This is probably completely off thread but my friend is a master machinist and we are thinking of machining a block of aluminum into a hollow PMD cooler that will install into the fuel line after but near the frame rail lift pump. The idea is to machine it so that fuel will flow through the aluminum block and wick the PMD heat .

Looks like a neat way to heat your fuel up. Might be good in the winter, probably would not take the heat off the pump in the summer.
Like the pump to run cool too.

the base leg of the transistor is carried thru the studs, lock tite would act as an insulator and would not carry current then, you get same problem with oxidation between the stud & nut, which also is corrected by retorque, actually before retorquing you should completely remove the nuts, & then buff them and the transistor bases so you get good electrical bonding contact again.

I read this entire thread, and was wondering if I can get college credits for it??:lol: I had a question to add, if the PMD mount nuts seem to back out over time, causing failure issues, why not use LockTite during the initial tourqe down to keep them tight? Thanks

Stanadyne dealer says much less failure rate on latest PN..( but the catch is latest )
won't really know untill a few years down the road....and with so many remote PMD's
, any improvement in quality , will probably remain a mystery

Just my WAG

The fails in this entire thread I reported temps on were latest & greatest PMD

New guy here.
This thread has been quite interesting, to say the least.
After stalling/starting problems with my /98 K2500 6.5TD and a few hours of "research" online. I determined I have "classic signs" of PMD failure.
I have a new one, but it came without a resistor. I went to a fuel injection shop, locally and picked one up. Seems the two GM dealers I called had no idea what I was talking about. They wanted to sell me a "kit" (PMD/harness/thermal pad) but no resistor.
Just for fun, I asked the guy at the fuel injector shop if he had a "junk" pmd that I could tear apart and look at the innards.
I'm planning on putting the new PMD on a heat sink and would like to mount it away from the engine. I'm toying with the idea of splicing/soldering/shrink tubing the harness to the desired length.
In the mean time, out of curiosity, I unplugged the origonal PMD, fished out the connector and plugged it into the "junk" pmd the guy at the shop gave me. It's been running fine for two days now, with no resistor in it. This is by no means a recommendation, I'm just curious as how it would work.
The PMD is just sitting there loose...we'll see how that goes....
There's at least one company that sells extended harnesses for mounting the PMD remotely and touts a 10 minute (or was that 20 minute) job rather
than pulling the intake to remove and replace in the origonal location.
Does anyone know if the extention simply plugs into the old harness (like an extention cord) or does one have to remove the intake and remove the harness from the injection pump and whatever is on the other end of the harness. I've stretched and twisted my eyeballs into knots trying to see where the harness plugs into (aside from the PMD and Inj pump. Can someone tell me from what direction the harness comes from and where it goes?
Any inputs are appreciated...
Thanks

Yes, it is an "extension cord". Very simple installation. Plug and play. Available from site vendor too.

Driver will run the truck without a resistor installed, until a TDC learn is initiated, see the FAQ time set info, don't do it until you get a resistor, PCM is running on the learned value of the old drivers resistor, once you do a new learn without the resistor the truck won't start.

If you have access to the old driver the resistor should still be in the bottom of it, that will work with your new driver. Not expensive new, call Kennedy or Heath they will be able to fix you up with one if your old one is gone, BTW if a dealer threw yours away they owe you one IMOP, not your fault they did not know it wasn't in there.

I do have a new resistor, it's in the new PMD which is not yet on the truck.
The PMD that's temporarily hooked up is without a resistor. I just put it in to see what difference it would make. I was expecting a noticable power loss...but nooooo....seems ok. I'm not so curious about this that I want to get into a no-go situation. The new PMD/resistor are on the seat in the cab.
If I understand your reply correctly...My truck "thinks" its still running on the origonal PMD/resistor until it "checks" and "learns" that it doesn't.

The origonal resistor is still in the origonal PMD. I really didn't want to pull off the intake. I think new gaskets for the intake would cost a bit more than the $21.00 I spent on the resistor.

So...as soon as I decide just where to mount the new PMD...hopefully, I'll be set.

I saw a picture of the PMD "extention cord". Is it possible (let me rephrase that a bit...) Can a mere person, such as myself procure the connectors, or at least the female connector and make one myself?

Thank you for your advice
Michael

Mike you have proven for yourself whay a device marketed by a vendor that trolls forums can't work, you may see mention of it as a fuel controller, supposedly allows for on they fly adjustment of fuel delivery. If changes to the circuits resistive value for more or less fuel were possible as vendor describes it then infinite resistance like one has without a resistor installed would shut one down immediaetly, you are running without one so we know it isn't possible.

On your resistor is a number 5A, 6, 7, 8, 9A possibly but even as high as a #14, higher the number the higher the fuel delivery, incrimental increase of fuel as resitor # goes up, I think difference between a #5 & a #9 resistor is about 3mm(3)/1000 change in delivery, how much of that is useable delivery vs capability to delivered I'm not sure can be seen or felt seat of pant, I noticed very little change.

reported though is max you can go without coding is a #9 resistor, I don't know 1st hand #9 is as far as I've taken it myself.

Your new driver/resistor won't have any effect until you initiate a TDC learn sequence.

Well...its been a good two monts now.
I still have the "junk/thrown away" PMD the guy at the fuel injection shop
gave me. It's still just sitting on the side of the manifold...attached only
by the wire harness plug and no resistor in it.
It seems to start a little hard on really cold mornings (really cold being about
35 degrees F) and I may be down about 1 or 1 1/2 mpg, but thats hard to tell at this point.
The truck gets two to five start/stops daily.
I have the new PMD mounted on a heat sink that mounts onto the intake. That will put the PMD off to the driver side of the intake. I just need to "stretch" the wire harness an inch and a half or so...
It seems to me at this point that the resistor may not be ALL THAT critical.
By no means am I making any kind of recommendation of suggestion...this is just what I've done so far. I suppose I should get my butt out there and get the new one hooked up....just cuz I should!!

Mike

You should also get it out of the hot as hell engine bay!

bumping back to top summer is nearly here PMD's death starts to be a regular occurance this time of year, this is where mine is now http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15663

**

Bumping back to the top for summer will soon be here, this is one of the summertime gotcha's

Thanks for all the info in here. Connectors can be searched for on the web as weather pack connectors. I ordered all parts needed for a 6' extension for $31 delivered plus some time to assemble it. I ordered all high heat wire and loom along with the connectors, all are capable of almost 300F degrees. I noticed there is a lot of wire out there but not all has a high temp rating. Got a 14" long aluminum heat sink that I'm hoping will fit inside the bumper between the 2 air openings so I don't lose incoming air, have lots of air flow on the heat sink when cruising, PMD is out of the heat(engine bay) and inside the bumper it is some what protected from heavy rain. If TD is comfy with it behind the plate holder than I should be fine protected inside the bumper. I'm hoping with the fan always pulling air even in stopped traffic I will still have air flow. I also ordered an extra weather pack connector with blanks to insert in the PMD on the pump so it won't corrode in there and if I need it it will be my backup. Be glad to post picks in here when the fabbing begins or should I start a new thread. Seems in here would be good but this is Turbin Doc's thread so let me know. Gotta get me a PMD now, friggin expensive little things. I'd really like to start with new but whew. Pockets are getting shallow. My mileage has dropped a lot in the last few weeks, something is screwing up, runs smooth though, scratches head. Changed after I changed the fuel filter, hope I didn't send trash into the pump. Gauges on the way.
Peace

Pleaes let us know how you make out with the connectors.I was one of the guys that said i found the "weather pak" connectors also.Turns out they were all together different and don't know of anyone ever getting the right ones.