Hey all,
I'm new to TheDieselPlace, mostly lurking, and I have a few questions about fuel additives.....

I have heard some on this board with good reputations advocate fuel additives that emulsify (among other things), and there are those who advocate for additives that demulsify (among the same other things).

My questions are:
Under what conditions do you want to emulsify?
Under what conditions do you want to demulsify?
Under what conditions do you want to NOT add anything?

My DMax owners manual says fuel additives are not recommended, and pretty much everyone on this board (and others) says we better be using some special snakejuice or terrible things will happen to our expensive engines (yes I'm exaggerating… slightly).

Anyway….. before I run out and add a bottle of each just to make sure http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif, I’d sure appreciate it if we could get the background information on this laid out so we can choose what to do.

Thanks!
HBrunsEdited by: HBruns

HBurns,

A good place to start for background information is a topic in the T.S.B's section titled "Diesel Engine - Fuel System Additive Reco", posted by Mackin. I believe you must be logged on as a registered poster to access this section.

http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=154&PN=1

It has a detailed write-up from GM addressing the additvie issues. In summary, they make a strong point NOT to use emulsifiers.

Here is a key paragraph from the TSB:

"Only alcohol free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors diesel engines. Both *Racor(R) and *Stanadyne(R) diesel fuel additives are alcohol free and utilize water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas; be sure that they clearly state that they are alcohol free demulsifiers before use."

I too am looking forward to the comments from some of the knowledgeable folks posting on this site.

Here is the answer I got to about the same question you have.


I also believe the only reason they endorse Stanadyne & Racor(& no other) is because GM uses Stanadyne Pumps & Racor Fuel Systems. I am not saying that either is bad or good just a thought.
<DIV>Does the diesel Kleene demulsify or emulsify water?</DIV>


--------------------
Dear Brandon,

You have asked a question that can get very involved. The short answer is that our Diesel Kleen contains neither a demulsifier or emulsifier. Please read the following for a complete answer and the reasons.

A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur when the temperatures become severe.

An emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Also, as the temperatures drop water in the fuel can fall out depending on how much water is in the fuel and how cold it gets, which adds to water problems.

A solubilizer will take the water and solubilize it back into the fuel. When this happens you will not have water droplets suspended in the fuel and when you look at the fuel it will be clear and not cloudy. This is the preferred method to get free water out of the system and to keep the water that is in the fuel from falling out.

Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel you are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.

Diesel Kleen is a non-winter additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injector to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions and improve engine performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. Diesel Kleen does not contain a demulsifier or an emulsifier. I would recommend using Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months because it has more injector cleaner and cetane boost than the Diesel Fuel Supplement.

Our Diesel 91

HBruns, there is a lot of contention on this issue and a bit of searching the forum will find you a lot of parlay on it. Basically, GM does not endorse emulsification. Personally, I have been using an emulsifying additive (FPPF) since day one and will continue. I know that our OEM fuel filtration is not a capable and entirely effective water separator and I do not want to release water in my fuel. My truck, my choice, not an endorsement or directive to other owners.

NightStalker,
Thanks for the info. Now we have a fourth choice http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif (do nothing, emulsify, demulsify, and now solublize).

At this point, solublize seems like the way to go.... It puts the water into a true solution with fuel rather than suspend tiny droplets (emulsify) or cause suspended water to fall to the bottom of the tank, lines and filters (demulsify).

Does anyone have information about emulsified droplet size? Will these droplets pass through or be blocked by the Baldwin BF7635 filter used in the Kennedy Mega Filter?


Idle_Chatter,
I have been reading as much as I can. The differing opinions and differing products lead me to ask for the background information so I can form my own opinions and make my own informed decisions. What I have read so far is mostly "I use product X and have no problems." While this is nice to know it provides no underlying information about how they came to use that product.



Here are some of my decision factors and some of the information I know so far:
- Diesel fuel from the pump has a whole lot more crap in it than diesel fuel systems can handle.
- Diesel fuel systems use high-precision, high-cost parts that have a very low tolerance for crap in fuel.
- The OEM fuel filter system on the Duramax does the absolute minimum necessary to prevent widespread fuel system problems.
- I want my engine's expensive fuel system to have better protection than what the OEM fuel filter system can provide, hence my decision to add more fuel filtration.
- Water in fuel creates problems that cannot be fully solved by mechanical filtration (rust, freezing, clogged filters, etc.).
- There is conflicting information about how to prevent & solve water-in-fuel problems.
- There are different products on the market that use different & conflicting methods to solve and/or prevent water-in-fuel problems.
- I lack sufficient information to make informed decisions about what methods to use.

So… it all comes down to needing more information so I can make an informed decision about how to handle water in fuel. So far, I have noticed no problems with water, though I do want to have a strategy in place to prevent problems or handle them if I get a bad fill.

There are other fuel issues I have already decided on are to use a cetane boost and to use a lubricity additive. I live in central Texas and have few cold-weather issues to worry about. Bugs & algae in the fuel are related to hot weather and water, so if I solve water issues I should be covered there.

Thanks!
Hbruns

When this topic came up a couple years ago, GM didn't recommend any additive. We ignored them then, because we all knew the diesel in the country is crappy and our fuel injection pumps need the added lubrication. GM finally changed it's mind.


The argument between emulsifying and separating the water is this. Those who favor water separation point to the water separator on our fuel filters and describe how the system was designed that way. Those who favor emulsifying point out that water separating additives can cause water to pool in the fuel system and cause rust, and that is why you want to keep the water suspended in the fuel and then burned.


I wasn't that bent either way at first, because the big deal in using an additive is to lubricate the injection pump. I was using an emulsifier mainly because Kennedy recommended it and he's had very good luck with emulsifiers.


A couple weeks ago I helped my father-in-law install a secondary fuel tank. This necessitated cutting out a section of the factory steel fuel line. My father-in-law's truck had about 7,000 miles on it and he bought it in Jan of this year. It is an '04. He had not run any additive.


We found a significant amount of rust in the section of steel fuel line we removed. We were both surprised.


Whether or not the rust was from manufacturing, bad fuel, or something else; the main point here is the internal components of our fuel system can indeed rust. As such, I do not want an additive that will allow water to separate out of the fuel and pool, potentially causing rust.


Therefore I am now firmly entrenched in the emulsifying school of thought, regardless of GM's advice. After all, GM has already changed it's mind on additives once..............

I've been using an emulsifying additive since nearly new. I have just under 33,000 miles now. The reason I elected that option stems from a number of George Morrision's discussions of the topic, both here and on the Diesel Page bulletin board. Even though the factory recommneds against it, his reasoning was convincing. Among the considerations militating against a dispersant is the disturbing observations of a number of owners of rust in their OE filters. I speculated that if the water does not have a chance to pool it can't induce rust. Neither my Cat filter nor my OE filter showed any signs of rust when cut open.

I started out using Redline Oil's 85Plus. The engine seemed to run smoother on it that without. I used it for many thousands of miles with no apparent ill effects. Nick offered me a couple bottles of Primrose to try. Out of curiosity I gave it a go. I had a slight case of idle surge just before switching from the Redline to Primrose. It's gone now, which may be coincidental. In April returning from Colorado I ran out of Primrose for the last tank before getting home. I forgotten to bring an extra bottle. The engine ran fine, but sounded a bit more clattery than under the influence of the additive. Used the Primrose with the next tank and the engine tone smoothed out again.

My experience might have been exactly the same with a de-emulsifying additive. But I'm not inclined to find out.

TC