I was minding my own business while doing a tree estimate for a customer and my cell phone rang. It was Ken from TESTAND CORP. in Rhode Island. He was calling to tell me he was prepared to do the comparitive study for us!!!!


I rubbed my eyes and wondered if I was dreaming!!!! TESTAND CORP. makes the test stands for all ISO and SAE air, oil filter tests! These are $285,000 machines!!! The results will be definitive and absolute. There will be no issues of humidity, human error or bias!!! My days of testing filters are over!


I got Ken really interesed in what we were doing when I called him for help. He offered a lot of advice but nothing substitutes for the real deal!! Ken is a Ford PSD owner and is as enthusiastic as I am to get REAL data!!! Now he is offering to do the real deal for us!!! All he needs is the filters.


I have some, but not enough brands. Ken will test anything EXCEPT Fram, since there would be a conflict of interest. I will contact UMP. I have AC Delco, UNI and Amsoil. We will need a K&N and any other filter we wish to test.


Time is of the essence since he will have a fully functional machine at his disposal for only a month or so. PLEASE reply or PM me for details. Most filters will be sent directly to TESTAND Corp. in Rhode Island to avoid shipping delay.


Here is our opportunity!!!! Let's get any and all brands for comparison!!! These will be COMPLETE ISO 5011/SAE J726 tests!! Flow restriction, efficiency, and on and on!!! SPICEREdited by: SPICER

SPICER,


Curious, why is there a conflict of interest concerning Fram and Ken?

*


SPICER,


Curious, why is there a conflict of interest concerning Fram and Ken?

It sounds like Testand supplies Fram with all of their test stands. I think He wants to avoid stepping on toes and creating a problem with one of his closer clients. I don't know all the details and relationships. I don't want to bite the hand that feeds us.

What will be needed is filters for testing. I have a bunch of filters loaned to me. I will need to find out if these individual filters should be used. The problem is that a filter tested in an ISO/SAE test is essentially no good after testing since it is loaded with test dust. I don't want to send filters loaned to me unless those who lent them are OK with never getting them back. Kind of a donation to science!

The UNI I have has been run several days on my test stand and we probably should send a new one. I have a brand new Amsoil and OE AC Delco that I will send. I will also send a used OE and K&N. Ken is interested in used filters also to compare efficiency with some use and miles. Please if you are interested please get in touch with me. SPICER

ooops, that should have been a PM. Edited by: WanaDmxsub

I have my old standard blue AFE if you want it....


It is used and has about 3K of use.

I have a few PM's to respond to. Some offers for test filters!!!! Perfect!!!. Any filter tested in THIS FASHION will be useless after testing. Any filters already donated from the past can be returned to sender or used for the test also.


I woke up this morning still not believing the offer. Typically a single filter test by an independent ISO/SAE tester is around $1500. He is offering free for the sake of science and research. It would be nice to get a representative sample from AS MANY manufacturers as possible!! Gotta Go for now!!! I had no intentions of doing anything with this until fall, but opportunity knocks!!! SPICER

Cliff from UMP just called and will offer filters for testing. These will be sent directly to Testand Corp. in Rhode Island. Thanks Cliff!!!!


I will probably hit the local auto parts stores and pick up some Napa and others to send. I would like to test a Baldwin filter for the Duramax. Anybody know how to get one? Any other filter to be tested would be great. Only need the media, not the housing or piping like on the AFE's. SPICER

jbplock is contacting WIX and Baldwin for filters. Thanks!!!! Just an update, thanks for all the help!!! Still need a new K&N and AFE filter elements (no intake tubes or filter housing needed). SPICER

Spicer,


This is great!!


I have a new Baldwin I can send. I also have a K&N used once and cleaned and a UNI used once and cleaned. If you can use any or all of these PM me the details.


Thanks,Tommy

Spicer,


This is great!!


I have a new Baldwin I can send. I also have a K&N used once and cleaned and a UNI used once and cleaned. If you can use any or all of these PM me the details.


Thanks,Tommy

abear, stand-by for further info. jbplock is doing some leg work with the Baldwin air filter. All filters must be new and fit our truck or the Ford PSD. We may send a couple of used ones but #of miles needs to be documented. I believe he plans to run re-useable filters new, then clean and re-oil according to instructions and re-run the test. This would simulate a "used " filter. I do want to send a few disposable paper filters with some miles on them to compare filtering efficiencies. It is pretty well accepted that paper filters better with age. Hopefully we will see evidence of that. I may pull mine out of the truck and send it for that matter. It is OE AC Delco paper.

Anyway this ball is rolling pretty quick. I want as many brands as possible to be tested. I may purchase some on my own if I must and solicit donations to help. We will see, hopefully enough offers will come through. I have never seen an AFE but I want it tested also. Just need the element. I will be in touch with all that have offered help! SPICER

Tommy,


I'll contact Baldwin and WIX on Monday to see if they are interested in donating filters for the study... I'll post details when I know more. If they are’nt interested I'll purchase & donate a WIX to go with your Baldwin (?).


This is a great opportunity!! Many thanks to Spicer and Ken at Testand for arranging this test! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Tommy,


I'll contact Baldwin and WIX on Monday to see if they are interested in donating filters for the study... I'll post details when I know more. If they are’nt interested I'll purchase & donate a WIX to go with your Baldwin (?).


This is a great opportunity!! Many thanks to Spicer and Ken at Testand for arranging this test! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif








jbplock, I was just about to PM you with this very suggestion. Good thinking! OK, here is the current list of filters to be sent:


1) Used OE AC Delco w/ 25k donated by FishHog


2) New OE AC Delco donated by Bronco


3) Used K&N 17k miles, cleaned 1k miles ago, donated by Bronco


4) New Napa/Wix donated by flhrciblueice.


5) Used Amsoil, older style 10k miles cleaned once and re-oiled from habanero.


6) New Amsoil with oil donated by Kent Tuttle.


7) Used UNI w/ 15k miled never serviced from Eric Merchant.


8) A mystery bargain filter, no brand name, fits our airbox, probably for the gasser engine. from flhrciblueice.


Others on the way from Diesel Power, jbplock, WanaDmaxSub and others. Main items needed include NEW K&N with recharge kit, New UNI, New Baldwin, New UMP.


All but the New K&N have probable donators. I have a AFE 54 series coming from Tulsa 1718. This is not the proguard 7. I assume the proguard 7 is the latest from AFE. We certainly would like to see one of these offered up for the sake of truth and science. Thanks to all for the help!!! SPICER

I will be glad to send you a well used Baldwin filter.
I replace it when the gauge goes in the red, usually after about 2000 miles.

I will be glad to send you a well used Baldwin filter.
I replace it when the gauge goes in the red, usually after about 2000 miles.

2000 miles? Are you driving exclusively through dust storms? SPICER

I will be glad to send you a well used Baldwin filter.
I replace it when the gauge goes in the red, usually after about 2000 miles.

2000 miles? Are you driving exclusively through dust storms? SPICER



Lots of dirt road driving and thru dusty fields. The way the air inlet is designed any dirt kicked up by the front wheel gets sucked in the air filter.
I am not kidding. We run 4 of these trucks and all require the airfilters to be changed around 2000 miles.

Spicer and Jbplock,


If WIX will not supply the filter, I have some new ones I can send. Just let me know.

flhrciblueice, is the WIX the same as the NAPA? You sent me one but it looks a little faded in the middle of the media, like it was sitting on a shelf for a long time. I went to NAPA and looked at another. It was the same as the one you sent but a little darker orange. I think we should send a "fresh" one. It is a $1500 test, so why skimp on the filter?

You also sent me those mystery bargain filters. They have the label covered on the side. Do you remember the details on those filters? What brand? I plan to include them in the test, but would like more details first.

dutch, if they are all used up and showing red then they would be no good for the test. I want to test used ones (10-25k on the road) to compare efficiencies between new and used. It is a common belief that paper gets better with dirt loading. You should check out uniquemetalproducts.com. They sell a filter and housing for your application. SPICER

Spicer and Jbplock,


If WIX will not supply the filter, I have some new ones I can send. Just let me know.

flhrciblueice,
I called WIX and they declined to supply a filter so if you would like to donate a WIX just send a PM to Spicer (or I) for the mailing address.

I also called Baldwin and left a message with their air filter guy.

In the mean time I ordered a Fleetguard AF25948 filter and had it shipped directly to Ken from TestStand.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif
Edited by: jbplock

Spicer and Jbplock,


If WIX will not supply the filter, I have some new ones I can send. Just let me know.

flhrciblueice,
I called WIX and they declined to supply a filter so if you would like to donate a WIX just send a PM to Spicer (or I) for the mailing address.

I also called Baldwin and left a message with their air filter guy.

In the mean time I ordered a Fleetguard AF25948 filter and had it shipped directly to Ken from TestStand.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


Wow, thanks for stepping up to the plate! I have an offer for an AFE Proguard 7 on my PM. I will update when the offer comes through for sure.

If Baldwin declines they are pretty inexpensive. I have an offer as well from a member.

Can anyone think of any filters missing? I still need a new K&N. I was also wondering if Donaldson made a filter that fit our airbox. SPICER

Spicer and Jbplock,


If WIX will not supply the filter, I have some new ones I can send.* Just let me know.

flhrciblueice, Is the WIX filter that you have the regular NAPA filter? The one you sent me previously is the NAPA Gold (looks orange in color) vs. the regular NAPA filter which is plain paper.

I want to ship all my filters in the morning but I may wait until Wed. if I need to pick up any more filters.

On Edit: I just called a couple of local retailers. The K$N (I did the $ on purpose) is $55. The recharge kit is $10. This store also has Purolator. Is Purolator the same as any other filter, just renamed? I don't want to send any duplicates. The Purolator is $18.
I also called Napa. The ONLY Napa filter for the Duramax is the Napa Gold for $10.49. They do not make the Napa Silver (plain paper) for the Duramax.

Given the opportunity at hand and the fact that the machine and the offer is only available for about 30 days, I may have to buy a couple more filters myself like the K&N. The test would not be complete without the K&N being a part of it.
Please if you intend to help by sending filters let's please do it right away. I want to be fair to Ken at Testand Corp. and give him as much time as possible to complete this big task. Thanks Again to everyone who is helping. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif SPICEREdited by: SPICER

I have a Baldwin filter in the garage I can donate if needed. New, in the box, never been used.

Spicer,


You said you may have to purchase a couple of the missing filters like the K&N etc. If this becomes the case I'm sure we can take up a collection to share the costs. This is a once in a lifetime chance to gather unbiased data on these various filtering medias and you have spent way too much time and money out of your pocket so far. If it comes to that PM me the details.

Spicer,


You said you may have to purchase a couple of the missing filters like the K&N etc. If*this becomes*the case I'm sure we can take up a collection to share the costs. This is a once in a lifetime chance to gather unbiased data on these various filtering medias and you have spent way too much time*and money out of your pocket*so far. If it comes to that PM me the details.*

I agree on every point. This IS a once in a lifetime opportunity. These tests would normally cost over $1500 for each filter! I hate to ask for financial help when I started this whole expedition.

I think it would be a shame if a filter was left out of the comparison test. I would be willing to be the man for the K&N if it is the last one I pay for. DEMAXALLIS PM'd me offering $20 towards a pro-guard 7 which claims to be "able to filter more efficiently than any other re-useable filter on the market". I want to answer these claims once and for all. I looked this filter up, it costs about $65 for a panel filter. They make others that are conical also, but the media is the same and we don't need ALL configurations.

jbplock, is the fleetguard the same as any other filters on the market? (packaged under a different name?)
SPICEREdited by: SPICER

Spicer, I have a new NAPA Gold(Wix) and a new Purolator. I still have your address. I will try to get them boxed up and shipped to you when I get off of work this morning/afternoon(not sure what time I will be getting off). I also have an oem air filter with 10 miles on it, but it has been sitting in the shop collecting dust for a couple of months(in a factory intake airbox).

jbplock, is the fleetguard the same as any other filters on the market? (packaged under a different name?)
SPICER

Arlen,
Good question! I'm not sure but I'll contact them to see if can find out.

Also, Baldwin didn't get back to me yesterday so I would assume they are not interested in donating a filter.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Spicer, I have a new NAPA Gold(Wix) and a new Purolator.* I still have your address.* I will try to get them boxed up and shipped to you when I get off of work this morning/afternoon(not sure what time I will be getting off).* I also have an oem air filter with 10 miles on it, but it has been sitting in the shop collecting dust for a couple of months(in a factory intake airbox).*

As long as they are still in the box and in mint condition please send them, just not directly to me. They need to be sent to Testand. If they are not mint specimens I would prefer to buy them.

Also, to anyone sending filters, please package/pad well. flhrciblueice sent me 2 stock airboxes for the previous test and they arrived broken!

I am mailing out filters today, I will buy the K$N. SPICER

Here's a list of DMax air filters. Donations Please! I'm sure most can be purchased for under 20 bucks. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


I will mail a Baldwin when I return home this afternoon. Is there a way we can keep up with what is being sent?


Spicer, Can you PM me the address.


oops, Almost forgot the list



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 align=center border=1 valign="middle">
<T>
<TR>
<TD class=appcover2 align=middle>Baldwin</TD>
<TD class=appcover2 align=middle>Comp Name</TD>
<TD class=appcover2 align=middle>Comp PartNo</TD>
<TD class=appcover2 align=middle>Comp Footer</TD>
<TD class=appcover2 align=middle>Description</TD>
<TD class=appcover2 align=middle>Remarks</TD></TR>
<TR class=appcover3 bgColor=#dcdcdc>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left>PA4134 (http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/PartSpecification.asp?URL=PartEntry.asp&amp;partnumber =PA4134)</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=ACDELCO align=left>ACDELCO</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=A1618C align=left>A1618C</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD></TR>
<TR class=appcover3 bgColor=#f5f5f5>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left>PA4134 (http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/PartSpecification.asp?URL=PartEntry.asp&amp;partnumber =PA4134)</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title="BALDWIN FILTERS" align=left>BALDWIN FILTERS</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=PA4134 align=left>PA4134</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD></TR>
<TR class=appcover3 bgColor=#dcdcdc>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left>PA4134 (http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/PartSpecification.asp?URL=PartEntry.asp&amp;partnumber =PA4134)</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title="BIG A" align=left>BIG A</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=94678 align=left>94678</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD></TR>
<TR class=appcover3 bgColor=#f5f5f5>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left>PA4134 (http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/PartSpecification.asp?URL=PartEntry.asp&amp;partnumber =PA4134)</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title="CHAMPION LABORATORIES" align=left>CHAMPION LABORATORIES</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=LAF1520 align=left>LAF1520</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD></TR>
<TR class=appcover3 bgColor=#dcdcdc>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left>PA4134 (http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/PartSpecification.asp?URL=PartEntry.asp&amp;partnumber =PA4134)</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=CITGO align=left>CITGO</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=LAF1520 align=left>LAF1520</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD></TR>
<TR class=appcover3 bgColor=#f5f5f5>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left>PA4134 (http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/PartSpecification.asp?URL=PartEntry.asp&amp;partnumber =PA4134)</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=CARQUEST align=left>CARQUEST</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 title=88678 align=left>88678</TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left> </TD></TR>
<TR class=appcover3 bgColor=#dcdcdc>
<TD class=appcover3 align=left><A href="http://catalog.baldwinfilter.com/PartSpecification.asp?URL=PartEntry.asp&amp;partnumber =P

Here's a list of DMax air filters. Donations Please! I'm sure most can be purchased for under 20 bucks.

I wonder how many of the above are the same manufacturer? We don't need repeats. Here is the current list:

I will be sending out today, all of these donated by members during the previous test:

1) U sed AC Delco OE, 25 k miles
2) New AC Delco OE
3)Used K&N 17 k miles
4) New K$N, I will buy one today
5) Used Amsoil, older style, 10k miles
6) New Amsoil with recharge oil
7) Used UNI 15 k miles
8) Mystery brand bargain filter (fits our airbox, a lot less pleats, probably for the gasser.

These are being sent direct to Testand by our members.
9) New UNI from Diesel Power
10) New Baldwin from a bear
11) UMP Donaldson filters being sent by Cliff from UMP.
12) New WIX/NAPA Gold and a Purolator sent by flhrciblueice.
13) New AFE 54 series sent by Tulsa 1718.
14) New Fleetguard from jbplock
I think that is all at this point. I would like to send a Pro-guard 7 but it is pricey also, about $65. What are we missing?

I will also get a paypal account if anyone wants to donate to help with the cost of filters and shipping. If you would rather you could PM me and send a check. I feel wrong asking for help, but it is getting expensive. Thank You to all who have donated so far. Please let me know what filters we are leaving out and where we can get them. SPICER
Edited by: SPICER

New(in plastic and boxed) NAPA Gold(Wix) and Purolator filters will be shipped this afternoon. I think the Purolator is also a Wix. I will try to verify whether it is or not. If it is a Wix, I won't bother sending it. If it is not, or if I can't verify for sure whether it is or not a Wix, I will send it anyway. Do we need to send more than one of each make or will one of each be enough? I should be able to come up with some more at a decent rate.

New(in plastic and boxed) NAPA Gold(Wix) and Purolator*filters will be shipped this afternoon.* I think the Purolator is also a Wix.* I will try to verify whether it is or not.* If it is a Wix, I won't bother sending it.* If it is not, or if I can't verify for sure whether it is or not a Wix, I will send it anyway.* Do we need to send more than one of each make or will one of each be enough?* I should be able to come up with some more at a decent rate.

Only one of each. Why do you think the Purolator is a WIX? Is it also orange? I will go and get the K&N now and take a look at the Purolator while I am there. Thanks for your help!!! SPICER

spicer,


the UNi and service kit went out today.. also you should add Airaid to your list as they said they'd send an element out..

jbplock, is the fleetguard the same as any other filters on the market? (packaged under a different name?)
SPICER

... I'll contact them to see if can find out.

I called Fleetguard Tech support and all they could tell me is that their AF25848 is equivalent to the GM OEM filter … no info concerning it's exact origin.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

spicer,


the UNi and service kit went out today.. also you should add Airaid to your list as they said they'd send an element out..*

Thank You! I will post an updated list later today! Is the Airaid a re-useable?

I have another donation to add to the list. I called dpp, Diesel Performance Parts, Inc. They are a vendor here. I spoke with Mark Craig and he said that he was follolwing the study and already inquired with AFE. They are sending a Pro Guard 7 and a recharge kit this week! A big thanks to the vendors who are stepping up!

I have figured out the paypal thing. My paypal is under our e-mail address. thespicerack@milwpc.com
If anyone wants to donate this way just PM me so I know it is coming and so I can mention your contribution here. You can also PM me and I will give you my address if it is easier to send a check.

lttlfeller just PM'd me and is sending $20. Thank You! I will let you know when donations have reached the expenses.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Thanks Again!
SPICER

Here is the most up-to-date list of filters to be tested. Please let me know if I have any mistakes.
I sent these out today:

1) Used AC Delco OE, 25 k miles from FishHog
2) New AC Delco OE from Bronco
3)Used K&N 17 k miles from Bronco
4) New K$N from SPICER and those sending donations.
5) Used Amsoil, older style, 10k miles from habanero.
6) New Amsoil with recharge oil from Kent Tuttle
7) Used UNI 15 k miles from Eric Merchant.
8) Mystery brand bargain filter (fits our airbox, a lot less pleats, probably for the gasser, looks like a WIX or a Purolator) from flhrciblueice

These are being sent direct to Testand by our members.

9) New Purolator A45314 from flhrciblueice.
10) New Wix (NAPA Gold) from flhrciblueice
11) New Fleetguard from jbplock.
12) New Baldwin from a bear.
13) New and possibly some used UMP / Donaldson conical paper filters from Cliff at UMP.
14) New AFE 54 Series from Tulsa 1718.
15) New AFE Pro Guard 7 from Mark Craig at Diesel Performance Parts, Inc.
16) New UNI with recharge oil from Diesel Power.
17) New Airaid from Diesel Power.

The following have agreed to send a paypal or check to help with expenses.

lttlfeller in the amt. of $20
pepperidge in the amt. of $10

Thank You to all who are making this possible!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif SPICER

2 more donations from the following:

DEMAXALLIS is sending $20

txguppy is sending "a couple saw bucks". Don't know what that means yet, but I'll take it.

Thank You for helping. This is a project that would be impossible without the generous participation of ALL who have offered filters and financial help. Thanks Again, SPICER

txguppy is sending "a couple saw bucks". Don't know what that means yet, but I'll take it.
SPICER

a saw buck is $20, or at least it was in my younger days.

Jim

txguppy is sending "a couple saw bucks". Don't know what that means yet, but I'll take it.
SPICER

a saw buck is $20, or at least it was in my younger days.

Jim

txguppy educated on the fact that a saw buck is $10 and that would mean that a couple saw bucks = $20. (Atleast in "deep south Texas")http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif Free Bird!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Also OC_DMAX is sending $10 to offset expenses. Thank You to all. This IS a team effort! SPICER

Purolator and WIX were shipped @ 1230 central time 06/22/04.

Is the Airaid a re-useable?



Yes it is but i don't know if they are sending a cleaning kit..

Now there is not a whole lot to do but wait and see. Please, if anyone can think of a brand name or aftermarket filter we are missing, speak up! Even if you don't have one to donate and do not wish to contribute. That is fine, but your input could be VERY helpful. Once this test is over I don't think it will be likely to get an offer like this again.

Now a little more about the test itself. The test is conducted under very strict procedures and conditions. As I learned while trying to do my own tests, there are a LOT of seemingly small variables that make the data virtually unuseable. Things like a 2 degree temperature change or small change in humidity can make a paper filter loose or gain several grams of weight. When looking at filtering efficiency by weighing a filter and a post-filter down to 1/100th of a gram, you can see how there is NO WAY to fudge the numbers. Also without knowing EXACTLY how much dirt is fed into the filter the results are again meaningless.

This is the purpose behind the ISO 5011 test standard. (It used to be called the SAE J726 but many still call it that). The test standard outlines VERY STRICT conditions under which the test MUST be conducted. The variables controlled include the test dust, the temp. and humidity of the test dust, the temp. and humidity of the air around and entering the filter.

The purpose for such strict testing conditions is to allow a filter tested in Germany to be able to be DIRECTLY compared to another filter tested 5 years later in Rhode Island. It leaves no room for fudging the results by altering(intentionally or unintentionally) the conditions or procedures under which the test was conducted. Now you can see why a machine that can do these tests cost $280,000. My $400 test stand just didn't cut it!

Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, let me explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales litterature. Gentlemen and Ladies, Marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing how many people believe that better airflow = more power! Unless you have modifications out the wazoo, a more porous filter will just dirty your oil! Some will say " I have used aftermarket brand X for XXX # years with no problems. The PROBLEM is you spent a chunk of ching on a product that not only DID NOT increase your horsepower, but also let in a lot of dirt while doing it! Now how much is a lot? ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY is TOO MUCH!

Others are persuaded by the claims of aftermarket manufacturers that their filters filter dirt "better than any other filter on the market." Sounds very enticing. To small timers like you and me, spending $1500 to test a filter sounds like a lot. But if you were a filter manufacturer and you believed your filter could filter dirt better than any other media on the market, wouldn't you want to prove it? Guess what. Test your filter vs. the OE paper. It will cost you $3000 and for that price you will have the data that you can use in your advertisements. Your investment will be returned a thousand fold! EASIER than shooting fish in a barrel! So why don't these manufacturers do this? Hmmm? Probably not because they would feel guilty about taking more market share.

Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless. A paper filter does not do well if directly wetted or muddy. It may collapse. This is why many off-road filters are foam. It is a compromise between filtering efficiency and protection from a collapsed filter. Now how many of our trucks collapse their filters from mud and water? However, if a filter is using "better airflow" as their marketing tool, remember this....Does it flow better? At very high airflow volumes, probably. BUT, Our trucks CAN'T flow that much air unless super-modified, so what is the p

Bravo!


FYI: A "Fin" is $5.00, A "Sawbuck" $10.00, Double Sawbuck $20.00


C-Note $100.00

That's right, what Silveradogs said. Also, found this @ ask.com:


Curiously, "sawbuck," a ten-dollar bill, appears to be only indirectly related to buck. It got its name because some old ten-spots were denominated with Roman numeral Xs. The Xs looked like the X-shaped arms of the benches sawyers used to hold up logs for cutting. (Pictogrammic depiction: X-X.) The benches, which were vaguely similar to today's sawhorses, were called sawbucks.



Sorry, thought it was a more popular term.

Don't appologize, diversity makes life interesting. I will try using sawbuck in my daily jargon from this point foreward! Like, "Does anybody have a sawbuck so I can buy a soda and a bratwurst or will I just have to drink water from the bubbler?" How's that? SPICEREdited by: SPICER

Spicer,


Not trying to start a war, but I have one question regarding your statement that the OE filters on our trucks flow enough air to give us all the horse power the engine has to give. My truck is stock and the OE filter new and after a hard pull the restriction gauge was always pulled in about 1/4 inch. While still in the acceptable range it did show that the engine was not breathing freely. After installing an Amsoil filter the gauge nevered moved.


I realize that this does not reflect the filtering ability of the filters, only the free flow of air. I'm waiting to see the results of these tests.


Bob

Until the restriction gauge is pegged the engine is still getting enough air to give you max horsepower. Adding the Amsoil, or for that matter taking the filter off all together will still add zero horsepower.

It does seem odd, though, that it would move with a new filter in place. The air filter life indicator could be at fault. I have never heard anyone make a similar observation.

I do know that when I had our airbox and filter on my test stand (Using a high power industrial blower moving 200cfm) I tried to make the filter life indicator show all red. I had the opening to the airbox covered at about 95% before it finally budged.

Test runs on dynomometers have shown no increase in maximum horsepower with the filter completely removed. SPICER

Spicer,


Not trying to start a war, but I have one question regarding your statement that the OE filters on our trucks flow enough air to give us all the horse power the engine has to give. My truck is stock and the OE filter new and after a hard pull the restriction gauge was always pulled in about 1/4 inch. While still in the acceptable range it did show that the engine was not breathing freely. After installing an Amsoil filter the gauge nevered moved.


Interesting. On my 1999 1500 gasser I never saw the gauge move. Only got 5k on the LLY, but never saw the gauge move on this one. Wonder how you get those things to move.

Jim

My 2001 does the same thing with the stock filter, changed to a K&amp;N and never seen the restriction guage move again, but fwiw maybe it had a lot more to do with the airbox not letting in enough air, i swiss cheesed the box and cannot remember if it was before or after K&amp;N

First off if you go by the filter minder as and indicator of when to clean or change the filter you have gone way to long.

As for the OE filter making the filter minder move is because the OE has more restriction.

I will never go by the gauge for air filter servicing those things are junk.

Greg

My 2001 does the same thing with the stock filter, changed to a K&N and never seen the restriction guage move again, but fwiw maybe it had a lot more to do with the airbox not letting in enough air, i swiss cheesed the box and cannot remember if it was before or after K&N
The early D-Max airboxes had the snorkle. Maybe this is what you are talking about. I don't know when, but they stopped making the snorkle airbox and went to a bigger, more "open" opening.

Greg, there is also such a thing as changing an air filter too often. The efficiency "ability to filter down to a smaller micron range" improves with mileage with any filter. A perpetually clean filter will let in more dirt than a relatively dirty one. Hopefully Ken will have time to test the used filters we sent him. The results should help us understand this issue better.

Actually this reminds me of a funny thing that happened to me a few weeks ago. We are getting a few windows replaced and one of the salesmen we called showed up driving an '02 Duramax, same color as mine. We forgot about windows and talked truck. We popped his hood and looked inside. His air filter indicator was pegged. I asked if it has ever been changed, 70k miles and no air filter change. Has it been driving poorly? NO. I offered him a new filter since I had DOZENS in the basement. We opened his airbox and it litterally looked like a rat had been living there. The intake tube? Clean! I reset his filter minder and reassembled the airbox. Don't know if it drove better after the filter change, never saw him again.

Oh, of course with never changing the air filter in 70k miles I naturally asked about his fuel filter.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Stern Smile.gif That was about what he looked like. "Suppose I should do that too, huh?

I would have done that for him too but I had somewhere to go. Anyway.......SPICEREdited by: SPICER

Yes I agree to a point. But if you let them get to dirty in the case of a reusable filter you will never get them clean.

Greg

FWIW, My 02's manufacture date is Jan 02. Had a single openning facing the fender with a piece of foil covering a simuliar hole in the fender. It sucked the foil into the airbox before I threw it into the garbage. I swiss cheesed the air box before I added the Amsoil Filter. Still sucked the guage in.


By the way Greg, I never did get reimburesed for the shipping charges from returning the defective filter????http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


Bob

When do you expect the results to be out for this test?

The efficiency "ability to filter down to a smaller micron range" improves with mileage with any filter. A perpetually clean filter will let in more dirt than a relatively dirty one.





Unless, of course, the filter has holes throughout (UNI?) which will suck air/dirt in with a higher force.

When do you expect the results to be out for this test?

The test and all the filters are in the hands of Testand Corp. I was told by Ken that he had the machine for about a month. The filters are probably just now arriving. I would hope that in 3 weeks time we should have some results. I don't know if the results will be sent all at one time or incrimentally.

I nam as anxious as anyone to see the results. SPICER

First off if you go by the filter minder as and indicator of when to clean or change the filter you have gone way to long.

As for the OE filter making the filter minder move is because the OE has more restriction.

I will never go by the gauge for air filter servicing those things are junk.

Greg


The filter had approx. 5,000km on it when i first noticed the guage being sucked in, i still have the oringinal and its looks pretty clean to me as the only driving it was in was the city.


Spicer, yes i've got the oringinal style snorkel type and thats why i swiss cheesed the box

Spicer, are you still in need of $$ for the test? If so let me know and I'll send you a sawbuckhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif to help out, I to am interested in the results, I have run a K&amp;N for ever in all my trucks and Quads.


Marty- just west of you

Spicer, are you still in need of $$ for the test? If so let me know and I'll send you a sawbuckhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif*to help out, I to am interested in the results, I have run a K&N for ever in all my trucks and Quads.


Marty- just west of you

There is a town called Marty? I am in the NW corner of Miwaukee.

I could always use a sawbuck. So far members have donated about $100. This week I spent that much on a new K&N with a recharge kit and shipping costs for 2 boxes of filters being sent to RI. I lost track a while back, but prior to the most recent developments in this study I was somewhere near $500 out of pocket.

All things considered I have been very lucky that my air filter "education" hasn't cost me a lot more. I would never expect to get all that back. Seeing meaningful results will be payment enough.

PM me if you would like to donate. Thanks for the offer! Go Packers! SPICER

silveradogs has offered a donation, amount undisclosed. I also have had 2 donations from members who wish to remain anonymous. Thank You to all!

jbplock has also offered to help with compiling and recording the data, once complete, in a fashion similar to the fuel filtering results in the past. Since I am a computer ditz, I gladly accepted his offer!

I am assuming we have all the filters we are interested in testing on the current list. I can't think of any more, but if anyone else can, please speak up.

If anyone on the filter donor list HAS NOT sent the filter(s) yet, please do so or contact me. I will also contact Ken and see that they are arriving in good condition. We cannot afford to have a specimen absent for this study, would be a travesty! SPICER

I just wanted to mention that blizzardplowman and motovet have both PM'd me offering to send a few sawbucks. Thank You for the ofeer to help!


I will contact Ken this week and see that the filters arrived. Hopefully I can get a timeline from him at that time. SPICER

Steve Stiller is going to paypal some dead presidents. Thank You Steve! SPICER

Old Geezer has offered to send $20! Thank You!

I am trying to get ahold of Ken for an update, I will let you know when I know. SPICER

I spoke to Ken at Testand briefly this morning. He was VERY surprised at the response so far, meaning the number of filters that arrived at Testand. He has the machine until sometime next week and hopes to start testing today. He said he may not be able to test all the filters due to time.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif I told him that the first to be removed from the test should be any of the used filters.


This project has been stressful, and having it OUT of my hands takes the pressure off me, but ADDS the stress of uncertainty. Without all the major players being tested there will still be room for debate. I hope to avoid that, but like I said, it is out of my hands.


We sent 17 filters. 4 are used and 1 is not for our truck (the mystery bargain filter) Remove these and we are down to 12. Hopefully he can do it. I will update as info comes my way. SPICER

I would assume then that one that will be tested will be the new AFE PG7 and the old AFE. There are a lot of us running this one and I am curious to see if the upgrade makes a difference. By chance would the sock cover be tested on these? Also wondering if the old oily foam was what it was cracked up to be, though I don't miss the mess. That is a lot of filters, hope he can get them all in.

I would assume then that one that will be tested will be the new AFE PG7 and the old AFE. There are a lot of us running this one and I am curious to see if the upgrade makes a difference. By chance would the sock cover be tested on these? Also wondering if the old oily foam was what it was cracked up to be, though I don't miss the mess. That is a lot of filters, hope he can get them all in.


I sent him a priority list. I had to base the order of priority on controversey and popularity. The old AFE, according to the dealer, is not nearly as popular and is not kept in stock, special order only.


I cannot guarantee that Ken will follow my priority list as our communication is infrequent. He is a hard man to get ahold of. Here is the list I sent him.


Priority list:


1) OE Paper, 2) K&amp;N, 3) Amsoil, 4) UNI, 5) Donaldson/UMP, 6) AFE Pro Guard 7 7) Baldwin


Secondary:


8) WIX/Napa Gold, 9) Purolator, 10) Fleetguard, 11) Air Raid, 12) AFE 54 series.


Eliminated unless there is time: Used UNI, OE, K&amp;N, Amsoil, and new Mystery bargain filter.


I can only hope he can test the first 12. The remaining filters would be interesting to test but not as important. I will keep you posted.


I doubt he will do anything with a sock unless it is supplied with the filter and a part of the design of the filter. I also do not know if he will have time to wash and re-test reuseable filters. Ideally it would be done and I have suggested it, but testing new/clean filters is priority and I cannot speak for him and what he will do. I wish I could, let's just hope for the best! SPICEREdited by: SPICER

Actually if the first seven made it through it would satisfy me.... should be interesting. I use the sock cover on mine to keep out any water as the AFE is very close to the hood/fender gap...don't know how much added filtering is achieved with one though.

Not sure if it has been submitted, but does that new Fram AirHog filter (which I vote for the most annoying commercial of the month) come for the Duramax?

I'll bet that baby lets through a load of "air"....

Not sure if it has been submitted, but does that new Fram AirHog filter (which I vote for the most annoying commercial of the month) come for the Duramax?

I'll bet that baby lets through a load of "air"....


Interesting you mention this filter. Don't know if it comes made for the Dmax, but Testand will not test Fram against our filters submitted because of a conflict of interest. Testand makes the test stands for fram for oil and air filters.


Here is an interesting tidbit though. I don't know if Fram is using any numbers in their advertising for the AirHog, but I've been told by a reliable source that they boast a pretty decent efficiency number for dirt removal. Problem is they used "PTI Course Test Dust". The ISO 5011/SAE J726 calls for "PTI Fine Test Dust".


What is the difference? My screen door is 100% efficient at filtering GRAVEL, BIRDS and BUNNIES from the air! To claim a high efficiency using course test dust means you don't want to know how it filters fine dust. Probably like a SIEVE! Always important to read the fine print! SPICER

Lots of "Bandwith" here, where are we at? Is there a summary page?


Idahofox

any news?

any news?


Still waiting for news from Ken. Hoping no news is good news?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif SPICER

We waited this long......

I was wondering if there was a difference in filtering ability between a drop in filter for the stock air box and a conical filter like the ones used on the intake kits? I was thinking that because the conical filter has a greater filtering area then the flat variety, the volume of air passing through would be the same but the velocity of the air moving through it at any one point would be less and therefor might allow for more dust/dirt to be trapped. Any thoughts?


And to spicer and all those who helped this study thank you. Its always nice to see if manufactures can back what they claim. Edited by: AbsoluteGMC

Just moving to the top.

FINALLY word from Ken. Tests are complete and the data is on its way! I should get a fax in a day or two and the COMPLETE data will be mailed since the programs do not work on E-mail.


Let me first say that Ken is a VERY busy man and stretched himself VERY thin to help out in this project. He also showed a lot of patience with all my annoying calls and E-mails. It is hard when you want to know!!!! Are you done yet? Are you done yet? How 'bout now?


The info Ken had for me on the phone was incomplete and based on memory. He did not have the data in front of him and he did not personally run all of the tests; here is what he could tell me:


One filter sent was unuseable, it had a hole in it. This was sent from Florida and was paper. I will look into this and find out which one it was. The Purolator had a leaky seal but still tested "pretty well".


All filters were tested using PTI Course test dust. Why? It appears that a lot of manufacturers are using course dust instead of fine in their tests in order to BOOST their reported efficiency %. It really does not matter if you use Course or Fine dust as long as all are tested the same. Ken used course so we could compare the results to other claims. With fine dust the ranking based on efficiency would be no different. With fine dust the numbers would be smaller in terms of efficiency %.


In microns, Fine and Course compare like this:


micron size % in Fine % in Course


0-2.5 19.7 5.3


0-5 37.3 11.5


5-10 18.2 11.6


10-20 17.7 14.9


20-40 16.6 22.4


40-80 9.9 28.7


80+ .4 10.9


As you can see a filter will "LOOK" better if using course dust, but side-by-side they will stack up the same.


When I asked about the performance of specific filters he just could not remember it all. He did mention that the Baldwin paper to his best memory was at the top. He also said he does not remember any re-useable filter outperforming paper in efficiency. He also said the foam filters showed dirt on the clean side at the end of the test and may mail them back to me so we can see for our selves.


No filters were cleaned and re-used. Only the K&amp;N will be cleaned and re-tested. Ken wants to test it using Fine dust to see the difference.


Data coming will be much more than efficiency %. Restriction, etc...will all be in the data. I will likely make a copy of it all and find a way to make a link or get it to jbplock to compile and present.


I am glad to see this coming to fruition and I can rest assured that we did our best. Thanks for the support and looking foreward to the data. NOTE: I am going to be inactive here next week, vacation time. Hopefully I will have some meat and potatoes for you to chew on before then. SPICEREdited by: SPICER

Excellent!
I look forward to seeing how my favorite filter compares to the others.

HBruns

Spicer,


Looking forward to the test data. This is really an excellent opportunity for everyone on this forum to get an independent evaluation of filter performance. Removes any vendor bias. With the test data, everyone will be able to make a decision on what is best for their truck.


Thanks for taking the time to pull all this together.





Alan

Boy, PC, that sure is jumping to conclusions. I haven't seen any solid results yet, have you?


Besides, getting an apology from geno is going to be like getting your money back from UNI........NOT!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

yes WAIT until the official resuts to come in before the mud starts flying.

Spicer
how did you fair on money? Did you get enough to cover your out of pocket expenses?

Mark

Spicer
how did you fair on money? Did you get enough to cover your out of pocket expenses?

Mark


The majority of my expenses came during phase 1 of this project. That was the "try to do my own testing" phase. That is money down the drain. Phase 2 was the "leave it to the experts" phase. Here my expenses included an AC Delco filter, a K&amp;N, and shipping. With donations phase 2 was covered. I think members sent a total of about $150. I do not want any more money. Solid data will suffice. SPICER

He did mention that the Baldwin paper to his best memory was at the top.


Seems like Baldwin is the best rated oil filter too, per mfr specs.

I have shown this thread to "Jeepers", "Fordsters" and "Dodgers" that I work with. All of them are very interested with the results. They have said basically the same thing, that the Cheby Guys seem to want to get to the bottom of the issue and are better at working together than most. There is a large group of them (myself included) that use the oiled-reuseable filters and we all are willing to use a better filter, regardless of brand.


Spicer, glad to see that you have the moxi to push for this and ignore the BS'ers enough to keep focussed. Thanks from us.

Just read this line here in the above post. Its what I told everyone about months ago. Its what started all this BS.


---------&gt;&gt;&gt; "He also said the foam filters showed dirt on the clean side at the end of the test" &lt;&lt;&lt;----------------


Looks like UNI does have sun shining through those holes after all.

Hey UNI cop suck on that for a while........

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifThis is going to be good!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

Someone's feeling their oats... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I might have to bookmark this thread..........


maybe make it a sticky http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifNY

I don't know about you guys but I'm so curious to find out the real results of the air filter test that I don't care about "I told ya so 's".


I want to see which manufacturers can walk the walk and which ones are just hot air!

Posting to keep track of the results. I hope the Baldwin does well. Just started using them.

bttt=back to the top

Bottom line for me is the info, the other stuff is just a side show, but it's fun nonetheless!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

Good news/bad news. Good news first, I have all the test results in my hand. Bad news, All of the filters and the data are labeled using the "part number" or stock number. I know the Amsoil is TS123 and Purolator I think is PA4134 and K&amp;N 72-90008. As soon as I have numbers and identity, we are GOLD! Reply if you have numbers for any filter tested. I called Ken to see if he has a master list. I will copy the list on the following post. SPICER Edited by: SPICER

1) OE Paper, 2) K&amp;N, 3) Amsoil, 4) UNI, 5) Donaldson/UMP, 6) AFE Pro Guard 7 7) Baldwin


Secondary:


8) WIX/Napa Gold, 9) Purolator, 10) Fleetguard, 11) Air Raid, 12) AFE 54 series.

Posting to keep track of the results. I hope the Baldwin does well. Just started using them.


The Baldwin also provides PLENTY air 1/2"WC @ Idle and 1-1/2" WC @ WOT with a new filter. I just hooked up the manometer line a couple of months ago and will see how things progress over the filter life span.

Spicer Part # PA 4134 is the Baldwin filter I did a search on the Baldwin website.

Part # 33-2135 is the k&amp;n Filter. K&amp;n Part # That is

the uni should be: UAA-103


the Airaid should be 700-469





lets see some results..!!

Fleetguard is AF25848


AC is A1618C


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

You guys are killing me!


Rick

RESULTS ARE IN; PREPARE FOR BATTLE!!!!!!!!


First of all, Thank You to ALL Participants and Donors of filters.


The following filters did NOT make the test. UMP/Donaldson and AirRaid. Cliff at UMP had important issues outside of his control and was unable to get the filters sent to Rhode Island. The AirRaid filter simply never made it and probably was never shipped. None the less, here are the results of the EFFICIENCY test. Flow restriction, dirt holding capacity, etc. will be posted later.


In the order of filtering efficiency the results are:


FILTER % Efficiency


AC Delco OE 99.93%


Baldwin 99.72%


No name filter (made for gas engine, 1/3 less pleats) 99.32%


AFE ProGuard 7 (73-10062), panel filter 99.23%


WIX/Napa 99.03%


Purolator 98.73%


Amsoil, new style 98.63%


UNI 97.93%


K&amp;N 96.80%


Additionally, these 2 were tested using FINE test dust. The K&amp;N was cleaned and retested, the AFE was the conical version:


K&amp;N 89.85%


AFE Conical 92.33%


Gotta go test fire hose!!!!!!!! SPICERhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Spicer:


Nice work. I`m traveling and don`t get to this website very often, and of courses I forgot my password. Are you sure you don`t want anymore donation$$$. Excuse Txguppy for the SAWBUCK lingo, I guess we didn`t whip him enough when he was young. But we`er proud of him anyway.


Jomar

OK- so what does the AC cost and what does the Baldwin cost?


Thanks also from my engine.Edited by: TraceF

Great results and THANX for doing it.


Ben http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif

Anyone want a slightly used UNI and K&amp;N. The price is right @ zero $.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Oh, and I almost forgot Thanks Spicer. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif You da man!Edited by: a bear

Some additional data and info.


Every filter is initially run at 350 cfm and initial RESTRICTION is documented in "inches of water differential pressure". The test is run and dirt is fed at a rate of 9.8 grams per minute. The test is continued until the flow restriction reaches INITIAL RESTRICTION + 10 inches of water. At that point the total dirt fed is documented, total dirt getting past the filter is documented, and with those numbers filtering efficiency is calculated.


A filters ability to "flow air" is indicated by it's "Initial Restriction". A filter's dirt holding/loading capacity is indicated by the " Accumulative Capacity". I will also post the "Accumulative Gain" of each filter which is the amount of dirt that got past the filter during the test.


Back to Fireman duties, will post this data soon. SPICERhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

If you want to get data on the UMP box/Donoldson filter, give me a call and I'll take mine down there. Testand is about 18 miles from my front door. That puts me just shy of 3000 miles closer than Cliff in Santee.

Ox

Its nice that he ran the test and we have the info BUT he should have used fine dirt.

I run my 4x4 in fine talc like dirt.

So the test is not accurate for me. Even though the oem ranked highest and the uni among the lowest.
Edited by: paulrichard

Its nice that he ran the test and we have the info BUT he should have used fine dirt.

I run my 4x4 in fine talc like dirt.

So the test is not accurate for me. Even though the oem ranked highest and the uni among the lowest.



Read about the difference in Fine vs. Course test dirt in a previous post. Course test dust has the SAME tiny particles as Fine, but the ratio is different. As mentioned before, using Course dust will not change the outcome of filter ranking, only the % number. In other words, K&amp;N will still test worst, but the numbers for all the filters will be smaller. Example: K&amp;N tested with Course was 96.8%, with Fine 89.85%. AFE with Course was 99.23%, with fine 92.33%.


Course dust has ultra-fine 0-5 micron dust in it, just less. Ranking would be no different, just the numbers would look worse. SPICEREdited by: SPICER

In microns, Fine and Course compare like this:


micron size % in Fine % in Course


0-2.5 19.7 5.3


0-5 37.3 11.5


5-10 18.2 11.6


10-20 17.7 14.9


20-40 16.6 22.4


40-80 9.9 28.7


80+ .4 10.9


As you can see a filter will "LOOK" better if using course dust, but side-by-side they will stack up the same.








Blue Ox, I don't think it can be tested for free at this point. One time deal. I will look into options in the future. It is a shame it was not tested (UMP), I picked it to finish #1. SPICEREdited by: SPICER

Its nice that he ran the test and we have the info BUT he should have used fine dirt.

I run my 4x4 in fine talc like dirt.

So the test is not accurate for me. Even though the oem ranked highest and the uni among the lowest.



The AFE and K&amp;N ran linear on the efficiency loss with the coarse dirt verses fine. 2.43% diff w/ coarse and 2.48% w/ fine. Thats about 5/1000ths diff.(extremely close) I would think it would be close to the same for all brands for comparison purposes and should follow in efficiencies for any size dirt. The fine should show some loss but the brands should track the same. The so called Coarse dirt is not all that coarse and also contains some fine.

The following is the complete test results. In order of rank from BEST performance to WORST in the categories of FILTERING EFFICIENCY, FLOW RESTRICTION, DIRT HOLDING CAPACITY and TOTAL DIRT PASSING THE FILTER DURING TEST.








In the order of filtering efficiency the results are:


FILTER % Efficiency


AC Delco OE 99.93%


Baldwin 99.72%


No name filter (made for gas engine, 1/3 less pleats) 99.32%


AFE ProGuard 7 (73-10062), panel filter 99.23%


WIX/Napa 99.03%


Purolator 98.73%


Amsoil, new style 98.63%


UNI 97.93%


K&amp;N 96.80%


Additionally, these 2 were tested using FINE test dust. The K&amp;N was cleaned and retested, the AFE was the conical version:


K&amp;N 89.85%


AFE Conical 92.33%





FLOW RESTRICTION FROM BEST TO WORST:


FILTER RESTRICTION in Inches H2O


K&amp;N 4.54


Mystery bargain filter 4.78


AFE Pro Guard 7 Panel 4.99


Purolator 5.05


WIX/Napa 5.06


UNI 5.40


Baldwin 5.71


Amsoil 5.88


AC Delco &nb

So the UNI passed 7.9g, while the AC passed 0.4g. Any idea what a dangerous level of passing dirt is? If you change your oil every 3,000 miles or 10,000 miles?

p.s. - AC Delco for me!Edited by: conradv

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Now that is interesting stuff! Spicer, if you reconsider taking donations, I would be more then happy. Sorry I missed it the first time around. I wasn't paying attention http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


It looks like the Delco filter will work good for me!

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Now that is interesting stuff! Spicer, if you reconsider taking donations, I would be more then happy. Sorry I missed it the first time around. I wasn't paying attention http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


It looks like the Delco filter will work good for me!





I don't need anything for myself. I want to come up with a gift for Ken and Sheila who took care of us. Any ideas? If you want to donate PM me. SPICER

Gift certs to a local fancy restaurant? Some people don't like using gift certs either so maybe not.

I have to admit I'm a little shocked by the results myself. Although I will be running Delco filters from here on in.

Sound like "Mystery Bargain filter" didn't do too bad itself, either. Wonder if there's a way to find out the brand??

I can tell you that the AC Delco filter on our 2001 LB7 truck had 5000 miles on it when we ran low 12 sec passes on #2 only. So I can see no reason to run anything else.

This is great information and I want to applaud all for the efforts involved. I abandoned my AFE Stage II kit several months ago for various reasons and have run Baldwin paper ever since, more for the availability and 1/2 the cost of A/C Delco ...at least in my town. Looks like I made a good choice considering it appears it had excellent results. I'll definately continue to run the Baldwin until I can get a good price on the A/C Delco. Local dealer first wanted $34! for a damn filter ...then I told him I would be going cross town to buy a Baldwin for $12 ...he then said "how about $24?" ...that's when I hung up on him as I got the impression he was running a live auction.

Sound like "Mystery Bargain filter" didn't do too bad itself, either. Wonder if there's a way to find out the brand??


Go figure....I'll bet it's a supermarket/generic brand filter.


I find it funny that the el-cheapo was actually the overall best filter. Kinda shoots "holes" in all the aftermarket claims, doesn't it? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


BTW, that's a nod to PC....maybe he WAS on to something? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif


Tom http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Pig.gif

kinda wish donaldson made it i missed this tread entirely. BTW who makes the delco????

Just caught up on this thread, Spicer, very nice work.


I am as suprised as anybody to see the results of these tests.


I suppose it looks as if I better stock up on AC Delco air filters againhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Awsome job spicer. Glad I never used anything but AC since new. Even at $26 it gives me peace of mind. It's too bad that Cliff couldn't get you the Donaldson; I really wanted to see what it would do before I bought the UMP set up. Now I'll have to wait. Blueox, any chance of getting a filter to Ken? Thanks again spicer.


LA DMAX

No need to get angry, although I will say that I hope this study will shed some light on the Marketing vs. Truth battle that is so troubling. Here is a piece from a previous post of mine. The motivation behind this study................



Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, let me explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales litterature. Gentlemen and Ladies, Marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing how many people believe that better airflow = more power! Unless you have modifications out the wazoo, a more porous filter will just dirty your oil! Some will say " I have used aftermarket brand X for XXX # years with no problems. The PROBLEM is you spent a chunk of ching on a product that not only DID NOT increase your horsepower, but also let in a lot of dirt while doing it! Now how much is a lot? ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY is TOO MUCH!

Others are persuaded by the claims of aftermarket manufacturers that their filters filter dirt "better than any other filter on the market." Sounds very enticing. To small timers like you and me, spending $1500 to test a filter sounds like a lot. But if you were a filter manufacturer and you believed your filter could filter dirt better than any other media on the market, wouldn't you want to prove it? Guess what. Test your filter vs. the OE paper. It will cost you $3000 and for that price you will have the data that you can use in your advertisements. Your investment will be returned a thousand fold! EASIER than shooting fish in a barrel! So why don't these manufacturers do this? Hmmm? Probably not because they would feel guilty about taking more market share.

Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless. A paper filter does not do well if directly wetted or muddy. It may collapse. This is why many off-road filters are foam. It is a compromise between filtering efficiency and protection from a collapsed filter. Now how many of our trucks collapse their filters from mud and water? However, if a filter is using "better airflow" as their marketing tool, remember this....Does it flow better? At very high airflow volumes, probably. BUT, Our trucks CAN'T flow that much air unless super-modified, so what is the point? The stock filter will flow MORE THAN ENOUGH AIR to give you ALL THE HORSEPOWER the engine has to give. And this remains true until the filter is dirty enough to trip the air filter life indicator. At that point performance will decline somewhat. Replace the filter and get on with it.

Hopefully the results of this test will do 2 things. Shed some light on the misleading marketing claims of some aftermarket manufacturers and/or give us new insight on products already on the market that are superior to our OE filter. I stand for truth and will eat my words publically if my statements prove wrong.

SPICER

Excellent to finally see the results. I think we all suspected the K&amp;N would be on the poor filtration side and that was confirmed. And what can anyone say about UNI that hasn't already been said. I've always run the OEM and will continue to. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Geno, this is getting old.


PC and Geno, Do spicer and the rest a favor and please keep this technical thread, technical. We owe Spicer that much. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Thank you, SPICER, for all you did in bringing these results to light. You help everyone by sticking to your guns and finding the info. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


I'm glad I still run stock ACDelco.


Tom http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Pig.gif Edited by: TheBac

You got it Max. Like I said I succeeded and Im happy. Im not even the Uni Cop no mo.


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

SPICER,


THANKS!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif


Josh

Just playing with some numbers. For those who think paper is still too restrictive, (Its not and has been proven time and again) here is something to think about............1 inch of water = .036 psi.


AC Delco had 6.23 inches of water restriction


K&amp;N had 4.54.


This is a difference of .0608 psi. Virtually nothing!


At the same time the AC Delco filtered 573.898g of dirt and let 0.4g past


The K&amp;N filtered only 211.58g and let 6g past.


The UNI filtered 374.638g and let 7.9g past.


But remember, "UNI, the best filters on the planet!!!" SPICEREdited by: SPICER

Geno and PC - PC and Geno


I don't like to do this openly it isn't my style but I want all the members to know .


I just went through and removed your offensive exchange. I am sick of the constant banter dirtying up a quality informative threads as this one and Also through out this forum chasing one another around with snide remarks. Spicer and others have gone through relentless hours of investigating air filter efficiency.We members don't have to ,don't want to, read through your ridiculous constant banter.


If if it persist not "one" will depart.


End it or I will !


Edited by: Mackin

Just playing with some numbers. For those who think paper is still too restrictive, (Its not and has been proven time and again) here is something to think about............1 inch of water = .036 psi.


AC Delco had 6.23 inches of water restriction


K&amp;N had 4.54.


This is a difference of .0608 psi. Virtually nothing!


At the same time the AC Delco filtered 573.898g of dirt and let 0.4g past


The K&amp;N filtered only 211.58g and let 6g past.


The UNI filtered 374.638g and let 7.9g past.


But remember, "UNI, the best filters on the planet!!!" SPICER





After seeing these numbers posted above and if my manometer was reading accurately when I checked a new Baldwin filter as installed on my truck I would also agree that paper flows all that is needed with a ton to spare. My readings of 1/2" WC @ idle and 1-1/2" at WOT are much lower than reported above which would indicate that Testand was using a larger volume of air to get these worst case numbers. This would only reinforce the fact that paper is providing way more than enough air flow with plenty to spare and the added benefit of efficiency. I would also have to concede that GM designed an adequately sized intake box/filter. I can't thank Spicer enough. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Since I'm a AFE fan (me like Turbo whistle) what's the possibility of the Pre Filter Wrap adding to the efficiency ?


Are we still Testing or are we done ?





Mac

Since I'm a AFE fan (me like Turbo whistle) what's the possibility of the Pre Filter Wrap adding to the efficiency ?


Are we still Testing or are we done ?





Mac

Same here! I run the pro-guard 7 with the pre filter wrap. Any thoughts. Seemed to have tested well without.

I ran an AFE prefilter on my AFE Stage II. Seemed to do a good job keeping the "rocks" out and filter dry in real wet conditions. I'd be curious to see the effect it has on the filtration results. Perhaps it works well.

Spicer, I just took my Amsoil off my baby today thanks to you and your diligence! Great thread of information, proving once again that this is a great forum http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


Mackin, Outstanding comments towards PC &amp; Geno.... if it comes to it, I don't think their comments will be missed much. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

crud, good thing I have an ACDelco in the box still...so I guess we can still run the higher power settings on a stock air filter then? Great work Spicer (and all those involved) I'm going to take that UNI out and give it a piece of my mind...hahaha

These air filter test results are great to have. The questions I have are:


Does it matter how straight and smooth the tube is from the air filter to the engine? The K&amp;N FIPK has a smooth and slick interior. Is this better or is the stock tube sufficent? I am starting to feel that I wasted my money buying a K&amp;N FIPK.

holy donuts batman....you shoulda seen my UNI (insert explitive) I've only had it on since March...wish I had a digital camera....Bill I may need to drop my filter off for you take a look at and take a pic of...you gotta see thisEdited by: Wolverine

..Bill I may need to drop my filter off for you take a look at and take a pic of...you gotta see this


Jon, If you can stop by tomorrow I can take a picture to post.. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Just dumb luck but I've been running the AC Filters since new...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


Many thanks to Spicer for this great data!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


Edited by: jbplock

I've been running K&amp;N and UNI up untill a few thousand miles ago.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif Hope the oilguard has been working as advertised.

Reaching back in my memory, wasn't someone getting superb oil analysis results with the Amsoil air filter? May be from that other Duramax chat site.


I guess my question is in the range from bad to good, is the difference significant enough to do harm?Edited by: TraceF

That probably depends on the environment it's run in. Running off road would be one of the worse case scenarios.

I've been getting great silicon numbers, Trace - usually in the 6 to 8 ppm range. Have had an Amsoil in my truck for 75,000 miles (two generations - bought the truck in Oct-01 and put the first Amsoil in in Dec). I just put a Uni in the box 4,000 miles ago at my 82,500 mile service. In 4,000 more miles I'll be swapping back a cleaned Amsoil and sampling my oil for the 90,000 mile service. Will be interested to see how my silicon comes out. Personally, I believe in the concept of oiled foam and it has proven to be satisfactory for me.

SPICER ........YOU DA MAN http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock%20On.gif





MACKIN ......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Idle


I will be sampleing my oil as soon as I get back from vacation to see if my filter is doing as said. Who do you use for your testing.


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

Since I'm a AFE fan (me like Turbo whistle) what's the possibility of the Pre Filter Wrap adding to the efficiency ?


Are we still Testing or are we done ?





Mac

I think we are done. If it was my lab and I had all day I would keep playing. The real travesty was not testing the UMP/Donaldson filter. I had it picked in my mind as being the best performer. It has the advantage in a number of ways. First, it is industrial grade paper with a proven track record. Second, it has MORE surface area, tighter media, and is oversized for our trucks. This is likened to using a MEGA fuel filter with very tight media. Allows for slower movement through the media. I was sure it would be best. I think that Cliff at UMP would be smart to test the media of the UMP independently vs. the OE AC Delco. It may cost 3k, but if it proves better the sales would be rewarded.

The UMP also has an advantage that would not be able to be tested by the ISO/SAE test. The airbox is designed specifically to remove a large portion of the dirt BEFORE it reaches the media. The ISO/SAE test only tests medias, not systems.

As far as the AFE sock pre-wrap, I have not seen it but it probably does little more than keep the chunks off the filter surface. Probably minimal if any help to the overall efficiency.

Someone asked about intake tubing and restriction. If a more restrictive paper filter does not decrease your power, there is no way a corrugated 5 inch tube hurts your power. I am of the opinion that there is nothing to gain from aftermarket add-ons (air filter) with the exception of a little quality time under the hood of your truck. But beware, don't love your truck to death! Just because it looks good doesn't mean it won't do harm. SPICER

Hey spicer thanks!


When you look at the results take a comprehensive approach. Seems as though all three categories need to be taken into account.


1. How well it flows.


2. How much dirt it stops.


3. How muck dirt it can hold befrore it becomes plugged.


The ACDelco stops the most dirt and holds the most dirt before plugging. It is also the most restrictive.


The KN flows the most but does a horrible job stopping dirt.


Maybe an ACDELCO for daily driving and a KN for drag racing?


Once again Spicer thanks for the effort.

I'm going to take that UNI out and give it a piece of my mind...hahaha

Better watch it .Some might make it through some of those holes. LOL

Sorry guys, I just couldn't resist

Kudo's to Spicer for the hard work putting this together. ans some credit to PC for pointing out that aftermarket filters for some arent what they may claim.


Pepperidge

P.S. Strange thing is. I still haven't taken my K&N out. I was hoping the results would have allowed me to keep it in. Putting in an AC tommorow!

I am back to accepting donations. This time it is for a Thank You gift fir Ken and Sheila at Testand. Not only did they provide us with over $15,000 in lab testing for free and helped us see the light through all the Marketing Muck, they also put up with all my annoying phone calls.


Zeeb has made the first donation of $20. Any ideas on an appropriate gift would be helpful also. SPICER

Spicer


Thanks for the comments well put and thanks for putting all this together,very very much appreciated !!!! Certainly is an eye opener and gets one thinking .


If you would please remind us where and how we can send a thank you gift .


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Any donation for a gift can be Paypal or mailed. Paypal address is thespicerack@milwpc.com. If you do this please make a note of your dieselplace.com forum name so I know who you are.


If you prefer to mail a donation by check send me a PM (Private Messenger) and I will give you my address.


The fact that Ken took on this Very Involved Project is remarkable. Like I mentioned, he gave us over $15,000 in data for free. These filter tests run about $1,700 each. The machine that runs these tests cost $285,000. He is like us, he is inquisitive, wants to see truth through the marketing deceit, and is obviously a very generous and giving person. Ken also gave us a LOT of his time. Though he is as busy as the next guy, he spent dozens of hours in the last few weeks making this study possible.


Without Ken's help we would STILL be spinning our wheels and wasting our money. Hard factual data is a powerful thing, and so is generosity. Let's see if we can show him our appreciation. SPICER

I will be keeping my AFE stage II with Pro-Gard 7 and granny rag. As I do not see any information that shows it to be bad. The only section of the test that was bad was the low holding ability, which all that means is I need to clean it often. And that is not a problem as it puts me under the hood more often to check things out.


I see guy`s having injector failures at 1,500 miles on new trucks, and I see guy`s going 150,000 miles with 0 problems running the cheapest of everything they can get by with, and never changing filters until they have too.


I know one thing, the granny rag cover on the AFE can do nothing but help on filtering. Even when I ran the original AFE stage II without granny rag, At 27,409 miles I removed it for cleaning and I took a clean white T-Shirt rag to clean out the tube the best I could. And guess what my findings were! The T-Shirt came out clean as a whistle. I know that much of the dirt in the test is too small to see, but if the tube was dirty it would be easy to see once you had picked up 10`s of 1000`s of 1/2 micron pices of dust. And this was with the cheaper filter without the rag cover.


Thanks for the ground work on this project SPICER!


One thing I was wondering, If this test was done with a greater amount of air flow then what our trucks could ever see, this would increase to amount of dirt that gets through. This would not change the order of best to worst, but would make the worst look worse then in real world use.


I am a little ticked off at you SPICER for running this test, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifbecause now I am probably stuck with the two Amsoil filters One is brand new still in box, while the other one has 11,000 some miles, and I have to recharge kit. (Or what ever they call the oil stuff)http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Edited by: hdmax

Mike





Hows the P/G and turbo Whistle ? Did you have the Magnum prior ?


Mac

Mike





Hows the P/G and turbo Whistle ? Did you have the Magnum prior ?


Mac


Mac; the whistle is about the same, maybe a slight difference then with the regular filter. I had the blue filter before I got the gold one. Matter fact, I kept the blue one so when I clean the gold one I am not without the truck. It is clean and ready to go at a moments notice. That has always been the hang up of these reusable filters, the truck is out of commission for several hours if not over night, but not anymore. 5 minutes maxhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I will be keeping my AFE stage II with Pro-Gard 7 and granny rag. As I do not see any information that shows it to be bad. The only section of the test that was bad was the low holding ability, which all that means is I need to clean it often. And that is not a problem as it puts me under the hood more often to check things out.


HDMAX, I read the results the same way as you. The AFE Progard looked like a pretty good all around filter. I am sure your granny rag stops even more dirt and increases the interval between cleanings. It probally also reduces flow a bit.


I see guy`s having injector failures at 1,500 miles on new trucks, and I see guy`s going 150,000 miles with 0 problems running the cheapest of everything they can get by with, and never changing filters until they have too.


Some very independent testing on entrained air, additives, secondary filtration and power adders in relation to injector longjevity would be very helpful. It would be nice to get to the true causes of injector failure or at least have a ranking of severity.


One thing I was wondering, if this test was done with a greater amount of air flow then what our trucks could ever see, this would increase to amount of dirt that gets through. This would not change the order of best to worst, but would make the worst look worse then in real world use.


Not to put words in Spicers mouth or the the people that tested the filters, but I am sure they did everything in there control to simulate real life, and produce as relative results as possible. The results are what they are. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Mike





Hows the P/G and turbo Whistle ? Did you have the Magnum prior ?


Mac


Mac; the whistle is about the same, maybe a slight difference then with the regular filter. I had the blue filter before I got the gold one. Matter fact, I kept the blue one so when I clean the gold one I am not without the truck. It is clean and ready to go at a moments notice. That has always been the hang up of these reusable filters, the truck is out of commission for several hours if not over night, but not anymore. 5 minutes maxhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





Ditto HDMAX.


Spicer, Thanks for all the time you spent on this project. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


Looking at the data, it seems I saw a test reading of 350cfm? It was also stated that 10" of H2O was used as a Delta to determine when the filter was dirty. What was the beginning test pressure for the dirt tests? Was the same pressure used for all the different type tests? Meaning dirt, outright flow, etc.


I'm trying to make some sense of the flow numbers in cfm as compared to some other data.... that I think Kennedy had, from a Superflow style flow bench.Edited by: Trippin

I will be keeping my AFE stage II with Pro-Gard 7 and granny rag. As I do not see any information that shows it to be bad. The only section of the test that was bad was the low holding ability, which all that means is I need to clean it often. And that is not a problem as it puts me under the hood more often to check things out.


I know one thing, the granny rag cover on the AFE can do nothing but help on filtering. Even when I ran the original AFE stage II without granny rag, At 27,409 miles I removed it for cleaning and I took a clean white T-Shirt rag to clean out the tube the best I could. And guess what my findings were! The T-Shirt came out clean as a whistle. I know that much of the dirt in the test is too small to see, but if the tube was dirty it would be easy to see once you had picked up 10`s of 1000`s of 1/2 micron pices of dust. And this was with the cheaper filter without the rag cover.


Thanks for the ground work on this project SPICER!


I am a little ticked off at you SPICER for running this test, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifbecause now I am probably stuck with the two Amsoil filters One is brand new still in box, while the other one has 11,000 some miles, and I have to recharge kit. (Or what ever they call the oil stuff)http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif








Dirt passing the filter will NOT deposit itself on the walls of the intake tube unless (1) You have a lot of static electricity to hold the dirt on the tube wall or (2) You have sticky oil on the tube wall to hold it there. Dirt passing the filter goes through the engine and out the tailpipe or into your oil.


The AFE was by far the best re-useable filter. However, it is not the best protection for the engine and it will not give you more HP. It does look cool and it will get you "under the hood more.


As far as the Amsoil goes, return it. They should take it if it is unopened. SPICER

The AFE was by far the best re-useable filter. However, it is not the best protection for the engine and it will not give you more HP. It does look cool and it will get you "under the hood more.





Did you mean to say it won't give you anymore power on a stock truck?Edited by: Trippin

I've been getting great silicon numbers, Trace - usually in the 6 to 8 ppm range. Have had an Amsoil in my truck for 75,000 miles (two generations - bought the truck in Oct-01 and put the first Amsoil in in Dec). I just put a Uni in the box 4,000 miles ago at my 82,500 mile service. In 4,000 more miles I'll be swapping back a cleaned Amsoil and sampling my oil for the 90,000 mile service. Will be interested to see how my silicon comes out. Personally, I believe in the concept of oiled foam and it has proven to be satisfactory for me.





Hey Tom! Are you on the original injectors?

Looking at the data, it seems I saw a test reading of 350cfm? It was also stated that 10" of H2O was used as a Delta to determine when the filter was dirty. What was the beginning test pressure for the dirt tests? Was the same pressure used for all the different type tests? Meaning dirt, outright flow, etc.


I'm trying to make some sense of the flow numbers in cfm as compared to some other data.... that I think Kennedy had, from a Superflow style flow bench.





350 cfm was used because this is the flow Fram used when testing their Air Hog for the Duramax. This is about 60% of the max flow for the Duramax which is a typical flow for an ISO/SAE test.


The initial restriction is the number listed in the original test data posted. The tests were terminated at 10" of water ABOVE that number for each filter.


Was the same pressure used for all the different type tests? Actually, all the tests were done simultaneously. First, the filter and post-filter is weighed. Then clean air is flowed at 350cfm to find the resistance to flow at that cfm. Then dirt is fed at 9.8g per minute and flow continues at 350cfm until an additional 10" of water is observed. (can take an hour or more). Then the filter and post filter are weighed. The values are used to calculate % efficiency and dirt holding capacity (dirt required to achieve that 10" additional restriction).


As far as no filter adding power, definitely on an unmodified rig. If a filter makes a difference on a modified truck I would have to see data before I believed it. SPICER

P.S. Where is George Morrison? He is an intelligent man with a lot of experience in this subject. I was hoping I would hear from him regarding this study. SPICER

Spicer...My Bad! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


I went back and reread the results. I think I understand. I'm used to seeing the pressure drop held constant and then reading CFM. In this case, I guess they hold the CFM constant and then read the pressure drop. Thanks again for all your leg work on this project! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


Perhaps the AFE stage 2 makes more power on modified trucks because of the flow gains of the entire intake package not just the filter.

Perhaps the AFE stage 2 makes more power on modified trucks because of the flow gains of the entire intake package not just the filter.


My thoughts exactly, the larger tube alone will help with air flow. The factory tube is smaller, more restrictive curves, and less smooth.


Spicer; all surfaces attract dust unless it is discharged, with plastic being worse then metal, and water worse then plastic. So if there was much dust getting by the filter, there would be some on the inside surface of the tubing, being an aluminum surface there would be less, but still some.

Perhaps the AFE stage 2 makes more power on modified trucks because of the flow gains of the entire intake package not just the filter.


My thoughts exactly, the larger tube alone will help with air flow. The factory tube is smaller, more restrictive curves, and less smooth.


Spicer; all surfaces attract dust unless it is discharged, with plastic being worse then metal, and water worse then plastic. So if there was much dust getting by the filter, there would be some on the inside surface of the tubing, being an aluminum surface there would be less, but still some.






Perhaps some, maybe, but at 350+ cfm flowing through a 4.5 inch tube you need static electricity, oil film, or some dirt particles with giant forearms to hold onto a smooth surface and not fly off.


Dyno tests are a cake walk compared to this air filter study. Try doing identical runs back to back and repeat a few times. Do some with a stock intake and filter and some with modified. Then we will have data. SPICER

Hey Tom! Are you on the original injectors?


Yep, all original except for the serpentine belt, belt tensioner, one set of tires and a few bulbs!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Had my balance rates checked at the Kennedy GTG and all 2 or less. Sitting at 86,400 miles today.


Been running an Amsoil dual remote oil filter for 60,000 of those miles, had a Kennedy Mega filter post-OEM for the last 12,000 miles and have been using fuel additives since day one.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/257_silicon.png


Edited by: Idle_Chatter

Perhaps the AFE stage 2 makes more power on modified trucks because of the flow gains of the entire intake package not just the filter.


My thoughts exactly, the larger tube alone will help with air flow. The factory tube is smaller, more restrictive curves, and less smooth.


Spicer; all surfaces attract dust unless it is discharged, with plastic being worse then metal, and water worse then plastic. So if there was much dust getting by the filter, there would be some on the inside surface of the tubing, being an aluminum surface there would be less, but still some.






Perhaps some, maybe, but at 350+ cfm flowing through a 4.5 inch tube you need static electricity, oil film, or some dirt particles with giant forearms to hold onto a smooth surface and not fly off.


Dyno tests are a cake walk compared to this air filter study. Try doing identical runs back to back and repeat a few times. Do some with a stock intake and filter and some with modified. Then we will have data. SPICER





Ever wonder why the blades of a fan get dirty? I think I read somewhere about somethig called a "boundry layer". The author claimed that air didn't actually flow right next to the surface but at some given distance away. And right next to the surface air speed was zero. This distance had something to do with surface finish. Rougher surfaces had the air flowing at a greater distance away from the surface and smoother, closer.


IMHO, I would expect some dirt to cling to the inside of the pipe.


I think your air filter testing is 100% accurate, I and others appreciate it, it allows us to make an informed decision on which air filter we run based on filter efficiency. However, I respectfully don't agree with your claims that the stock air box/filter will make as much power as an AFE Stage 2. I have seen different in multiple back to back tests. If you have seen different on a dyno, then we can agree to disagree, but if you are shooting from the hip, then.......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Trippin,


I studied the boundary layer quite a bit in school, the author was correct. The smoother and more polished the surface to smaller the boundary layer and the more laminar flow inside the tube. The same thing is true for any fluid.


My question is if airflow was increased from the 350 CFM to, say, 700 CFM would all of these results parallel or would some perform better at different airflow? My guess is that regardless of airflow, the results would be the same.


I am considering getting an AFE Pro Guard II, but if it does nothing for me, then I will skip it. Will it reduce EGT by allowing freer flow of air or does that just not apply?


Thanks,
Dennis

Trippin,


I studied the boundary layer quite a bit in school, the author was correct. The smoother and more polished the surface to smaller the boundary layer and the more laminar flow inside the tube. The same thing is true for any fluid.


My question is if airflow was increased from the 350 CFM to, say, 700 CFM would all of these results parallel or would some perform better at different airflow? My guess is that regardless of airflow, the results would be the same.


I am considering getting an AFE Pro Guard II, but if it does nothing for me, then I will skip it. Will it reduce EGT by allowing freer flow of air or does that just not apply?


Thanks,
Dennis





Dennis, I have never tested on a stock truck. I would have to agree with Spicer on a stock truck probably not making a difference.


However, as my sig says, I do have 136 load cell dyno runs on my truck. I'm kind of a stickler for repetitive results. So I test alot to be sure. I never want to mislead you guys into thinking something works when it doesn't.


With the Attitude in level 5 and an exhaust system, no cat, and an ATS trans/converter/Co-Pilot etc, the AFE stage 2 was 15+ HP back to back over my stock airbox with a UNI. I think the prices just went up on the AFE stuff. IMHO, based on value, I would buy an ex system and a power adder like the TTS Tow for your LLY before I did an AFE Stage 2.

Thank you Spicer, and to all others who helped out and donated. Guess I can stick with Baldwin, knowing with confidence that I have a pretty decent filter.
Thanx again all.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Sound like "Mystery Bargain filter" didn't do too bad itself, either. Wonder if there's a way to find out the brand??


I purchased them(20 of them!!) on ebay. The seller claimed they were for the duramax. When I received them, I noted that they had no glue on the pleats and had less pleats. I questioned the seller about this and he said he made a mistake. They were for the gassers and not for the dmax. I also inquired as to what brand they were. He said he worked for a filter manufacturer and they were made for a few different filter companies. I think he mentioned fram and a few other brand names that I can't recall. I still have quite a few of them if anyone wants to try them out. I got them pretty cheap. I will let them go for $1 each + shipping. I am still using a UNI at this time and I have a WIX that I use when cleaning and reoiling the UNI. I would like to try the afe proguard, but would prefer a drop in and as far as I know, they don't offer the proguard in a drop in filter.

Spicer; Do you know if these test were done on just the filter itself, or also the seal around the filter as well? That would make a world of difference because as many found out some seals were not up too snuff. As I was one of those while using the old style Amsoil air filter.


I do not mean to beat a dead horse while it is down,http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif but the reason I did bring up the dust/dirt on the inside of the intake tube was because of the amsoil.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif There was a coating of dust on the inside of the stock intake tube when I removed the Amsoil air filter to install the AFE Stage II. There were two areas that were much worse then the rest of the tube, indicating that there was blow by. I am sure that these tests were done according to ASTM, but there most likely are several ASTM specifications as to how to do certain test. ASTM number xxx would be fore the filter material, while ASTM # yyy would cover the seal around the filter, while yet another ASTM # would cover the whole unit.


I am not trying to get you over a barrel, just trying to sort through everything. Once again, THANKS!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

Spicer...

Thanks for the effort. It's looks like the Amsoil guys were right about the gauze -vs- oiled foam but I personally have experienced the poor dirt carrying capacity of the Amsoil filter. The Amsoil filter quickly builds a dirt layer on it's entry surface. Never was enough to trigger the filter minder but it was caked on. I still used it after I noticed how soon it built up but I just cleaned it more often.

I think people looking to cut their ET's go with no air filter at all.... just for the run.

Looks like the best setup full time would be a double AC setup. Double the flow, same cleaning capability.

MAC..... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Practice what you preach. I've laid out many decent how-to topics in the Cummins section only to have them bantered. All in fun is OK except now everytime somebody views the how-to they read the banter. Sorry guys... MAC... feel free to unload this statement to keep the topic clean.

Spicer....

Again... best effort I've seen on a real significant subject.Edited by: hoot

Trippin,


Great, that's exactly what I needed to hear. I already have the MBRP 4" on and the Juice/Attitude is on the way, so it looks like the AFE Pro Gaurd II is going to be on the way soon, as well.


Thanks!,
Dennis

Spicer; Do you know if these test were done on just the filter itself, or also the seal around the filter as well? That would make a world of difference because as many found out some seals were not up too snuff. As I was one of those while using the old style Amsoil air filter.


I do not mean to beat a dead horse while it is down,http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif but the reason I did bring up the dust/dirt on the inside of the intake tube was because of the amsoil.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif There was a coating of dust on the inside of the stock intake tube when I removed the Amsoil air filter to install the AFE Stage II. There were two areas that were much worse then the rest of the tube, indicating that there was blow by. I am sure that these tests were done according to ASTM, but there most likely are several ASTM specifications as to how to do certain test. ASTM number xxx would be fore the filter material, while ASTM # yyy would cover the seal around the filter, while yet another ASTM # would cover the whole unit.


I am not trying to get you over a barrel, just trying to sort through everything. Once again, THANKS!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif








When the filter is tested, they cut a "plate" for the filter. This is like an alluminum plate with a hole cut out to place the filter. I will be getting pictures but I know the seal is tested because Ken reported the Purolator had a seal leak. He noticed a dirt trail between the plate and the filter's seal. The filter still did well but with dirt leaking like this the efficiency # will be lower.


The Amsoil tested was the NEW version with a typical air filter gasket, not the old cusion style.


I too had an older style Amsoil filter. When servicing the first time I spent an hour cleaning a dirt/thin oil film out of the tube and all its corrugated seams. What a pain in the a**. AND my silica level was high. Then it was suggested to get a UNI as it has "superior construction and excellent results". I slammed on the brakes on that suggestion. So I started a crusade instead, spent hundreds of hours and dollars trying to test filters myself and along came Testand Corp.


Anyway, here we are. SPICER

I was playing with more numbers.


For every 500 grams of dirt encountered, the OE AC Delco will pass 0.35g of dirt into the engine.


The UNI will pass 10.35g of dirt and the K&amp;N will pass 16.00g of dirt.


That means your engine will ingest 29.57 times more dirt using the UNI and 45.71 times more dirt using the K&amp;N than if you stuck to the OE.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif Wow.





On another note, a big thanks to the following who have made donations for a Thank You gift.


Zeeb, a bear, Mackin, jbplock, Trace F, VaderDmax, and WanaDmaxsub. So far we have over $120 for a gift.


I will not send a gift for a couple weeks because I will be taking a much needed vacation. If you are thinking of donating, please get it to me soon. Thank You All! SPICER

I will get off my K&amp;N milkcrate...........accept 30 lashes and start using AC.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif See Hoot,i can admit it when i'm wrong.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gifDamn, that's just embarrasing for K&amp;N !http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Spicer , Nice work.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Spicer...


Looks like the best setup full time would be a double AC setup. Double the flow, same cleaning capability.





Hoot,


What do you mean by Double AC setup and how do you do it?


JP


on edit: Is anyone gonna send this data to the vendors to see what they have to say? Might be real interestin' how or if they respond.Edited by: Heartbeat Hauler

Spicer,


Thanks for all your efforts on our behalf! Going to the Auto Parts store tomorrow, to get back on the AC Bandwagon!


Pssstttt......Hey buddy....Wanna Buy a Used K&amp;N Filter CHEAP!!!!

I work at K&amp;N and find those results insulting to my intelligence as well as to that of your readers. We do both inside and outside testing of our products and your results are in complete contradiction to what is fact. I am not sure if you work for AFE or another company but we have seen AFE employees post "test results" and make claims of this nature in the past. I can assure all readers that K&amp;N filters for gas motors have 98% or better efficiency and for diesels, it is 99% or better. That is our standard and all products must meet it or they are never released. How do you think a company can stay in business for 35 years, selling over 5 million filters a year and have such a poor product as you lead to believe. Frankly, it is not possible. That fact alone is more convincing than some unknown study. If you really wanted to test filters, why did you not contact K&amp;N and see what help they could provide you? They have decades of data and would have enjoyed laying this urban myth that they do not filter well to rest.

Jetboater,

The results of the testing were not surprising. Over the years almost anywhere you read, oiled foam cell and gauze style filters consistantly came up short... not necessarily horrible, but short compared to OEM accordian pleat paper filters.

What I gather from all this is not necessarily to not use the oil based filters because they do flow better.

What has been substantiated in this test is higher flowing filters sized by the general constraints of the underhood area of a truck have lesser filtering capabilities, period.

My suggestion of dual AC Delco filters would give almost double the flow of stock and increase filter life. You would need a special custom box that somehow had the filters side by side or stacked with seperate outlets that Y together to the engine. Nothing like that exists.Edited by: hoot

Now that's what I call thinking outside the box... interesting idea.

Jetboat, where is the data?


I'm confused........a$$ also hurts since i fell off the K&amp;N milkcrate when i recieved my 30 lashes!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif Man I HATE when there are 180deg difference of opinion!I have over 75 K&amp;N filters in the trucks and in the shop..............ooooooooooooo them lashes hurt!

Jetboater,

The results of the testing were not surprising. Over the years almost anywhere you read, oiled foam cell and gauze style filters consistantly came up short... not necessarily horrible, but short compared to OEM accordian pleat paper filters.

What I gather from all this is not necessarily to not use the oil based filters because they do flow better.

What has been substantiated in this test is higher flowing filters sized by the general constraints of the underhood area of a truck have lesser filtering capabilities, period.

My suggestion of dual AC Delco filters would give almost double the flow of stock and increase filter life. You would need a special custom box that somehow had the filters side by side or stacked with seperate outlets that Y together to the engine. Nothing like that exists.


True, paper is #1 in filtration overall. I will not debate that. I will debate efficiencies like the ones in the "test" showed as they are way off base. Again, I cannot repeat enough that many times we have found other company employees and dealers behind the screen names of these negative to K&amp;N tests. Hmmm...

Jetboat, where is the data?


I'm confused........a$$ also hurts since i fell off the K&amp;N milkcrate when i recieved my 30 lashes!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif Man I HATE when there are 180deg difference of opinion!I have over 75 K&amp;N filters in the trucks and in the shop..............ooooooooooooo them lashes hurt!





http://knfilters.com/facts.htm#FACTS


http://knfilters.com/images/factstab1.gif

I work at K&amp;N and find those results insulting to my intelligence as well as to that of your readers. We do both inside and outside testing of our products and your results are in complete contradiction to what is fact. I am not sure if you work for AFE or another company but we have seen AFE employees post "test results" and make claims of this nature in the past. I can assure all readers that K&amp;N filters for gas motors have 98% or better efficiency and for diesels, it is 99% or better. That is our standard and all products must meet it or they are never released. How do you think a company can stay in business for 35 years, selling over 5 million filters a year and have such a poor product as you lead to believe. Frankly, it is not possible. That fact alone is more convincing than some unknown study. If you really wanted to test filters, why did you not contact K&amp;N and see what help they could provide you? They have decades of data and would have enjoyed laying this urban myth that they do not filter well to rest.





That's the beauty of this test all done independently.Not manufacture endorsed or spacific to the results.If KN came out on top,you be cheering.





Mac

I will debate efficiencies like the ones in the "test" showed as they are way off base. Again, I cannot repeat enough that many times we have found other company employees and dealers behind the screen names of these negative to K&amp;N tests. Hmmm...





If you would have seen the dirt in my intake tube, you would not be suprised by the results.

Doubtful. And I do not believe this one was 100% independent either.

Mac , prove him wrong. It was totaly independent,was it not?

Doubtful. And I do not believe this one was 100% independent either.


Are you saying the dust on the clean side and coating our intake tubes are a optical illusion. And don't even mention gasket seal. Go out and hold one up to the light and come back and tell me it doesn't look like a pin cushion.

I work at K&amp;N and find those results insulting to my intelligence as well as to that of your readers. We do both inside and outside testing of our products and your results are in complete contradiction to what is fact. I am not sure if you work for AFE or another company but we have seen AFE employees post "test results" and make claims of this nature in the past. I can assure all readers that K&amp;N filters for gas motors have 98% or better efficiency and for diesels, it is 99% or better. That is our standard and all products must meet it or they are never released. How do you think a company can stay in business for 35 years, selling over 5 million filters a year and have such a poor product as you lead to believe. Frankly, it is not possible. That fact alone is more convincing than some unknown study. If you really wanted to test filters, why did you not contact K&amp;N and see what help they could provide you? They have decades of data and would have enjoyed laying this urban myth that they do not filter well to rest.





That's the beauty of this test all done independently.Not manufacture endorsed or spacific to the results.If KN came out on top,you be cheering.





Mac


I agree with Mac on this one. I highly doubt that Spicer is tied into any kind of manufacturer. If so, he has a good front. He has been working on these filter tests for almost a year before he got a 'break' from the test company. Spending lots of his own $$ on a test stand that he hoped could help..


I wont doubt K&amp;N's reputation, but good advertising also sells too...


I heard a saying that you could always tell who had the worst beer, those who spend the most on advertising....


No manufacturer involvement in this test makes it the most accurate information out there to me.

Doubtful. And I do not believe this one was 100% independent either.


Are you saying the dust on the clean side and coating our intake tubes are a optical illusion. And don't even mention gasket seal. Go out and hold one up to the light and come back and tell me it doesn't look like a pin cushion.





LOL, you posted too fast! "Doubtful" was the response to the one above yours http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Gasket is due to the air box having an uneven surface that a urethane seal cannot distort to enough to seal off completely. Paper filters have foam seals but are not intended to be reused. Therefore, a faom seal is used which can easily be replaced as needed during the life of the filter. Holding to the light is not a good judge. Look at it under a microscope. What happens when you oil a white piece of paper? It looks transparent too. I almost did not post because I knew I would be attacked. I just know 100% for fact that those numbers are wrong. I have seen otherwise with my own eyes, no cheating or bias.

Each test cost $1700. How many tests were performed? Who paid for it? Just curious.

Attacked? Open minded bunch of guys with some spirited attitude maybe. Often manufactures like youre self come in here and stir the pot for a day or two and then vanish.Spicer has put in the time here with a valid effort. If he works for AC Delco , i'll eat one of my K&amp;N filters with fresh oil.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Each test cost $1700. How many tests were performed? Who paid for it? Just curious.


Damn, that's about right. We have about 10 different filters out at any given time. I do not think any other company goes through the hoops K&amp;N does to ensure quality. Not even the big "F" does that much testing.

i'll eat one of my K&amp;N filters with fresh oil.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif





That i gotta see!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Attacked? Open minded bunch of guys with some spirited attitude maybe. Often manufactures like youre self come in here and stir the pot for a day or two and then vanish.Spicer has put in the time here with a valid effort. If he works for AC Delco , i'll eat one of my K&amp;N filters with fresh oil.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


I'll agree to that... Open minded bunch of guys with some spirited attitude http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif And I'll eat an AFE if K&amp;N is not all we say it is http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

I'll agree to that... Open minded bunch of guys with some spirited attitude http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif And I'll eat an AFE if K&amp;N is not all we say it is http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif





That's just it,it becomes a he said she said senario.How about you eat an AFE since i took 30 lashes for standing on the K&amp;N milkcrate for 10 years.I have taken some serious heat over the years from all over,but yet i never had anyone prove me wrong like this. Yes, i have had no issues with the filters and my trucks longevity speak for them self.So , all i know is that you will be gone in 2-5 days and i'll still be sitting and pondering on all this.

You know, I get one thing from all this. There are 2 sides to every story. People will trust what they want to trust and brand loyalty like that is a good thing. Its sort of like arguing over the upcoming election. Oh sh!#, did I start another debate http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif I can tell you all that I am a hell of a nice guy and if you'd drink a beer with me on my boat and we'd be the best of buds. That much is certain. No hard feelings. Group http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

JB, if the test results presented here are such an insult to your intelligence, how are we to believe the results presented by K&N aren't an insult to ours? I know nothing of the motivation for Testand's involvement in this testing, but I for dang sure know K&N's motivation for their testing.

I'll agree to that... Open minded bunch of guys with some spirited attitude http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif And I'll eat an AFE if K&amp;N is not all we say it is http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif





That's just it,it becomes a he said she said senario.How about you eat an AFE since i took 30 lashes for standing on the K&amp;N milkcrate for 10 years.I have taken some serious heat over the years from all over,but yet i never had anyone prove me wrong like this. Yes, i have had no issues with the filters and my trucks longevity speak for them self.So , all i know is that you will be gone in 2-5 days and i'll still be sitting and pondering on all this.





I promise I won't go away in 2 - 5 days. I'll stick around and do my best to answer any question posed to me. Besides, what else am I supposed to do all day, work? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Tongue.gif Deal?

JetBoater, we have boating ,beer drinkin'and a fancy for eatin' air filters in common. But i'll have to do some thinkin' on this.Edited by: BROKER

JB, if the test results presented here are such an insult to your intelligence, how are we to believe the results presented by K&amp;N aren't an insult to ours? I know nothing of the motivation for Testand's involvement in this testing, but I for dang sure know K&amp;N's motivation for their testing.


Do you? Part of the K&amp;N mision statement is "quality products that perform as promised". Another is "honesty, integrity, and respect for people". I have worked many jobs and I can tell you, K&amp;N's owner and upper mangement live these and others daily and that is no BS. Ask anyone who works here and they will agree. This company is almost too honest and fair for their own good.

All bigger manufacturers do testing. Many like Fram own their own machines. The problem is NONE of the big names EXCEPT Baldwin have ever done a comparison study and published the data. And it is unclear whether that was done INDEPENDENTLY.

Jetboater, with the deep pockets that K&N must have, pay an independent lab to do a side-by-side comparison of the K&N vs. the OE for our trucks. Do it according to the SAE/ISO and even use FINE test dust instead of COURSE.

If you are not willing to do that then I am sure the answer would have been NO if I had called and asked you to participate.

For the record, I am a Firefighter for the North Shore Fire Dept. in Milwaukee County. I also have a small operation tree service on the side. This is why I own a diesel truck. This study was the result of nearly a year of work. Do a search on this site under air filter testing and read for yourself. We caught a break when Testand Corp. found our idea of a comparison study very interesting and offered to do the testing for us.

With the deep advertising pockets of K&N don't you think the BEST advertising would be the independent, side-by-side SAE/ISO test data comparing K&N to the OE and other aftermarket filters? And this time showing ALL the data, not the "select" data so typically combed through and pieced together found in brochures?

Such a good idea, if your filter IS the best maybe you can hire me as your marketing man! Imagine, independent data PROVING K&N superiority. You would never have to spend another marketing dime. Just profit! SPICER

Broker,


Here are a couple of mine. Host site won't allow hotlinks so...


http://www.hotboat.com/image_center/data/521/164pass_right-med.jpg


http://www.hotboat.com/image_center/data/500/164Elsinore2-med.JPG

Doubtful. And I do not believe this one was 100% independent either.


Jet Boater,


You are just going to have to trust that I am 100% independant. The only bias I am starting to develop is a slight disbelief in the entire aftermarket industry.


Trust me I had dirt on my intake tube and every gasket , seal and clamp was installed properly. No more K&amp;N no more dirt. The pinholes in my K&amp;N were real. It is a fact that oil is what is used to stop the dirt, not the cotton. If the oil is not sticky enough for the velocity of the dirt then it will not work. The oil based filter met it's match when it came across the Duramax Turbo Diesel!

I don't think anybody argued that K&N is not a quality product.

I agree with Hoot.I have never had grit in the intake duct on any of the trucks either. So it makes me wonder.


Spicer i was starting to figure out how to eat an K&amp;N before you posted your employment.

Spicer,


That such test is under way as we speak. Legal is involved however, and as we all know, once legal gets involved, things tend to move slooooooowly. Fear not though, this is forthcoming and sooner not later. We've been on this for several years now and finally its all coming together. FYI, our marketing budget sucks! But you did not hear that from me http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


PS, you don't want to move to Cali. Housing here is out of control. You can have a mansion back there for what a cookie cutter housing tract home costs here. My apologies if I came across as rude in any way.

Jetboater , thanks for the PM. I'll give you a call in a next few days.


Tom LeBlanc

Was all this testing done with replacement filters or was there some cone filters involved.


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

awesome post.........checks in the mail spicer............jetboat did you work for banks before you went to k/n excuses sound similar......... I like my proguard/AFE........Spicer thanks

Thanks spicer. I paypaled you some $$$$.


I also threw my K&amp;N out and sent my stock back to my supplier.

Thanks again.Edited by: Max Power

awesome post.........checks in the mail spicer............jetboat did you work for banks before you went to k/n excuses sound similar......... I like my proguard/AFE........Spicer thanks


Nope, guess again. BTW, its not an excuse, its a fact.

I got rid of my K-N some time ago, but the co trucks (3) have them in them and the powerstroke has the most miles over 300k and it has the K-N cone gen 2 from day one. Boss believes in them so I am not gonna try to change his mind, but I will be watchin it closely for comment on down the road.


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

Nope, guess again. BTW, its not an excuse, its a fact.








The GM delco filter tested better then the K&amp;N in an independent test. That is also fact. So who's facts are correct? K&amp;N's facts about K&amp;N's filters or independents facts about K&amp;N's filters. Interesting to say the least. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gifEdited by: Max Power

K&amp;Ns facts are because they are supported by independents as well as in house. 3 is better than 1 where I come from. No one is going to argue that most paper filters are slightly better. I show most paper to be around 99% efficient. I do show one brand of paper to be as low as 93% though. Believe what you want but I am 100% confident in K&amp;N and that the filters are 98% - 99+% efficient depending on application. How do you explain 300K on that Powerstroke above? Luck? I think not.

Geno, you operate a PSD?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

FYI, if anyone thinks I am posting here because I was asked to, you are wrong. If you think I have some sort of motive, again, you are wrong. In fact, I would most likely get in trouble for doing this. I mearly found the results to be inaccurate and a misrepresentation. I just happen to have inside information to the contrary and wanted to let everyone know that other testing has shown completely different results and not to take this one as gospel and the final say. I am just a boat loving, average joe and I have no agenda. Funny but that will probably not be believed either but for some reason other things are. If you actually knew me as a real person, you would be much more inclined to side with me. That much is certain. I guess I am just naive for thinking I could help.

K&amp;Ns facts are because they are supported by independents as well as in house. 3 is better than 1 where I come from. No one is going to argue that most paper filters are slightly better. I show most paper to be around 99% efficient. I do show one brand of paper to be as low as 93% though. Believe what you want but I am 100% confident in K&amp;N and that the filters are 98% - 99+% efficient depending on application. How do you explain 300K on that Powerstroke above? Luck? I think not.


Sounds like some double talk with regard to your "3 (tests are) better than 1," as you are so quickly put all faith in one anecdotal 300k mile powerstroke story from admittedly one heck of a truck forum. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

So do you have any explanation as to why Spicer's results were so poor?


If a paper filter is more efficient, why use a K&amp;N?

JetBoater,I guess you missed the Banks Six Gun Peashooter thread.PLUG-N-PLAY-HP-PROMISE-WAR.


Air Filters never got to that level


Amsoil = Cult Crew


AFE = Fast Fanatics


K&amp;N = Big Bucks


UNI = Need paint lessons &amp; Geno


But Fuel Filters........oh...oh,let's not even go there!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


I've heard it all before.So you better get some more ammo and bring a lunch.This is going to take awhile.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

OK Kids,


Let's leave Jetboater alone http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif, OK? If he thought he worked for a company that put out a bad product, I would think he would quit. The information Spicer provided can be used by all to make their own decisions. I switched back to stock filter from Amsoil on my D/Max and I'm an Amsoil dealer. However, I ran K&amp;N in my gasser truck for 200k miles with no problem that I could find. I also have Amsoil and K&amp;N in my cars. I would fully expect Jetboater to post any new information K&amp;N obtains. That's why we have a Forum, an OPEN exchange of ideas and information. Why debate what Jet has to say. The test numbers say what the test needs to say. Don't a few of the filter manufacturers guarantee their product, and will actually pay for damage due to poor product performance?


Bottom line, Let's keep this thread for informative posts. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Party Pooper!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Not without looking at the entire test including all proceedures and safeguards. I can say that I am 100% certain something was incorrect as I have hundreds of completely different results. He himself welcomes a similar test from K&amp;N and that will be happening. What then? Will that be trashed as false or will it be accepted because it is in print by a deep pockets corporation?


Why use a K&amp;N over paper if paper is more efficient? For increased air flow and reusability, that's easy! Increased air flow does not necessarily mean poorer filtration either. Like I said, I was just trying to show another side which can only be helpful. You people are very quick to judge.

Smshiver, well said. Broker, LOL, you must be a fellow boater with that response http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif Have you ever been in an arguement over jets vs. props? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif I always take internet info with a grain of salt. Personal experience does it for me. I trust what works for me not someone else.

Jet VS Props, all the time.

Geno, you operate a PSD?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Broker


Not me sir, it is used as a pick up and del truck daily in the oil field, some dirt an gravel roads but the majority is hiway. I drive a 2500 gasser with 312k and 95 percent is hiway.


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

I agree with Hoot.I have never had grit in the intake duct on any of the trucks either. So it makes me wonder.


Spicer i was starting to figure out how to eat an K&amp;N before you posted your employment.


Something don't jive here! You say you have used K&amp;N filters for a very long time, and have bunches of them. You also state that you have never had a single problem with them, and have never founf dirt on the clean side.


Yet in one test that has not been proven to be accurate you stop using them and pledge to go back to original equipment.

Broker


You wanting me to hire out to Uni as a painterhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif


Get him H.D.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gifEdited by: geno

I just put in an OE Filter.....funny thing how the GMC Dealer asked me $34.95 for the same filter that the Chevy Dealer sold me for $19.95. I bought 3 because I will be changing them more often. GMC must have used a pipe wrench to put on the fuel filter....It'll have to wait until tomorrow I guess. So much for my strap wrench. Great site.... Spicer, I'll send you a paypal in a couple of days......changed banks and forgot to change my paypal account, hopefully won't be a problem......20K miles so far and I love this truck....had a PSD in a 1 ton with duels but wasn't 4x4.....so glad that I made the switch.

Interesting I wondered when the Manufactures reps would show ,we await the resellers responses.


I can't see where anyone cannot believe the data shown here as bias.


Spicer is a fireman and part time tree man no interest in the outcome.


Ken I don't know of him but I'll take Spicers word for it as written in the first post in this thread


It was Ken from TESTAND CORP. in Rhode Island. He was calling to tell me he was prepared to do the comparitive study for us!!!!


I rubbed my eyes and wondered if I was dreaming!!!! TESTAND CORP. makes the test stands for all ISO and SAE air, oil filter tests! These are $285,000 machines!!! The results will be definitive and absolute. There will be no issues of humidity, human error or bias!!! My days of testing filters are over!


I got Ken really interesed in what we were doing when I called him for help. He offered a lot of advice but nothing substitutes for the real deal!! Ken is a Ford PSD owner and is as enthusiastic as I am to get REAL data!!! Now he is offering to do the real deal for us!!! All he needs is the filters.


I have some, but not enough brands. Ken will test anything EXCEPT Fram, since there would be a conflict of interest.


All I can say is where were the critics when this was set up then and prior ? Where was the test filters that could have been summited for testing? Now we come to rebuttal,I have to wonder.


I believe we stand by the Independent data shown until another independent tester can come forward with data to rebut TestStands data not Spicers ,as we are aware he did not have the time to do or the necessary instruments for accuracy.


Ken if you lurking ,Thanks for stepping in.





Mac


Edited by: Mackin

Sorry Jetboater. You just joined the forum after the information comes out. You're here for damage control. 19 posts on your first day. I'm a naturally suspicious person of peoples intentions. My own opinion of you says "corporate damage control"
I come from a boating family. If you were a sailboater, I would write you off as an a#*hole. (sailboaters in my neck of the boating woods believe Lake Erie was solely created for them) You do sound like a decent enough guy, but your doing an awfull hard job at promoting K&N.
Maybe we can move on now, and start on a fuel filter study, and oil filter. Spicer.... buddy ol' pal, looking for another project........?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I too used K&amp;N air filters on gassers for very high non problematic miles. 273,000, 220,000, and 267,000 miles. And never an engine problem.


Here is a little twist; First of all we can throw out the dirt holding abillity, (As this has nothing to do with protecting the engine) The K&amp;N supposedly allowed 1/5 of 1 oz of dirt throw in what would equate to about 25,000-30,000 miles or 4 oil changes. That my friend is nothing to loose sleep over. Big deal, so you have to change it twice a year, and for the really lonely guys 3 times per yearhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Many here seem to be making a lot out of very little.


Here is the wording "


TOTAL DIRT PASSING THE FILTER DURING THE TEST. This is how much dirt your engine will take in if you use the filter for the duration that would cause the filter to become "dirty" enough to need replacement or cleaning. The "Dirt Passing The Filter" is the dirt collected by the "Post Filter" during the test.


FILTER DIRT IN GRAMS PASSED


AC Delco 0.4 g


Baldwin 1.1g


AFE Pro Guard 7 1.8g


Mystery Bargain 2.4g


Amsoil 2.7g


WIX/Napa 4.4g


Purolator 5.0g


K&amp;N 6.0g


UNI 7.9g "Edited by: hdmax

JB


The easiest way for you correct the mis information as you call it would be to hire Testand of Road Island to repeat the same test over again. Since there business is building and testing these items you have questioned the quality of their work and therefore their company. Send them the funds to go buy a K&amp;N filter where ever they choose and test it against a AC Delco filter that they purchase where ever they choose. If the results are different I'm sure they would post them and you've made your point, if the results are the same then you've got work to do to improve your Duramax filter.

Diesel Tech,


You took the words right outta my mouth! Heck, even better, find every independent tester in the nation (can't imagine there would be that many). Have them all do the test Diesel Tech suggests, post the results. . . Then no more whining.


Dennis

It doesn't matter what he wrote... what's with the sig ???





Not to change the subject but...


How the hell can you run a 2003 D/A 345,000 miles? They were available in 8/02 if memory serves me correctly... you would have to drive it 522 miles every single day for 22 months - or - 653 miles a day, six days a week http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif


WhatthefunkEdited by: TraceF

Another thing I'd like to bring up, What size particals got through these filters? And did certain filters allow bigger particals then others? if all the material that was collected on the second filter was 1 micron or smaller, will this hurt, knowing that all but one allowed less then 1/5 of 1 oz of dust in 25,000-30,000 miles of use?


Another thing, I seem to recall reading that this testing company makes testing equipment for this type of testing. That doesn't make them an expert in running the test. I am not saying they would not be experts, just that building equipment for testing doesn't mean they know how the test is run.


I have had companies fabricate things for me in the past and they sometimes did excellant work, But if I ask them to use it in the way I was to use it, they would have been lost.


Just some more food for thought!

653 miles a day, six days a week


No sweat for a 2-man hotshot crew running 24/7 with aux tanks stopping only for fuel. That's how it gets done.

Jetboater,


I agree with Diesel Tech and baimpala above. Pass this thread by your Marketing Dept at K&amp;N. This should get them going. Marketing Depts typically waste a lot of money in worthless advertising. Here, on The Diesel Place forum, you have a captive audience. Like Diesel Tech mentions, have them hire Testand to perform the test. While your at it, include air filters for the Ford and Dodge community also. Might as well take care of everyone all at once. Heck, $10K for a Marketing Dept at a medium size company is nothing. They would get immediate exposure to maybe 20,000 diesel truck owners who are crazy enough to buy a lot of aftermarket products. Of course, your company would only undertake a test like this if they firmly believed in their product. So not hearing from K&amp;N would mean,,,,,,





Later,


Alan

Guys,


Since some people just do not believe this to be an independent test and think that there is some kind of hidden motivation ... then that is fine ... let them or who ever believe what they want.


Spicer presented the information that was presented to him from Testland...from money out of his own pocket, not from a marketing budget...


Probably since these same people will not believe the validity of any test... I think the next test should be on high performance windshield wipers, or how quick the power windows go up or down...


or simply put.. to each his own...


Pete I am here not to change your mind, but present the information and let you make up you own mind..... if you illiterate then that is not my problem

Another thing I'd like to bring up, What size particals got through these filters? And did certain filters allow bigger particals then others? if all the material that was collected on the second filter was 1 micron or smaller, will this hurt, knowing that all but one allowed less then 1/5 of 1 oz of dust in 25,000-30,000 miles of use?


Another thing, I seem to recall reading that this testing company makes testing equipment for this type of testing. That doesn't make them an expert in running the test. I am not saying they would not be experts, just that building equipment for testing doesn't mean they know how the test is run.


I have had companies fabricate things for me in the past and they sometimes did excellant work, But if I ask them to use it in the way I was to use it, they would have been lost.


Just some more food for thought!

Obviously the smaller perticles will get through more readily than the big one regardless of filter media. An exception would be a filter with holes in it. A tiny pin hole is still probably 10's of microns in size.

As far as the damaging particles, silica is the worst. The PTI Test Dust is made up of mostly silica.

Oilguard.com has some info regarding particle size most damaging to an engine. IIRC it is the 5-10 micron range that is the most damaging. Ironically the same goes for fuel contamination.

From my conversations with Ken, Testand makes the test stands and travels to it's destination to train the purchaser how to use it. Ken can recite the SAE/ISO standard like I can recite my address. These guys know what they are doing.

I also agree with the above posts regarding independent lab testing. Any involvement by a filter company introduces bias. The study outline should include hiring a company to acquire filters off the shelf on their own and test them. It is not unheard of in ANY WAY for a company to do a "so called independent study" or comparison and yet ASK for the SAE/ISO test to be conducted in such a manner that will help their product look better. It is also EXTREMELY common for these manufacturers to publish PARTIAL data. For instance, publish ONLY the flow rating or ONLY the dirt holding capacity portion because the FILTERING EFFICIENCY portion is pittiful.

BTW, I expected the most backlash from the UNI crowd. I went to Advance Auto Parts myself and bought the K&N (members sent me some help) because it is very popular and I knew the study would be incomplete without it. I am glad we ruffled some feathers because quite frankly the advertising deceit and marketing methods are insulting. I will say it again, the best advertising is straight-up, unbiased, side-by-side data conducted by an independent lab and done according to an UNMODIFIED standard.

geno, the only cone filter tested was the AFE. The AFE on the Efficiency rating data is the panel filter. Below that is the AFE cone filter.

Ken got a little confused. I thought UMP sent some Donaldson conical filters. They were never sent. I mentioned to Ken that I predicted the UMP/Donaldson conical filter to test #1. When the AFE conical showed up he thought that was the one I spoke of. He tested ONLY the AFE conical and the cleaned and re-oiled K&N using FINE test dust. All others were tested with course. SPICER Edited by: SPICER

Thanks spicer, great job!

I have 3 more Thank You's for help with the Testand Thank You gift. I have paypal help from GMC_2002_Dmax, Max Power and Idle-Chatter.

Thank You for showing your appreciation to Ken and Testand.
SPICER

I don't know if I am more crazy for getting up at 2:30 am to write this, or for contributing to this thread in order for it to never diehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


I just woke up and was thinking. This is something that just dawned on me.


In defense of the re-usable filters, (K&amp;N, AFE, and Amsoil, there maybe more) Of course the filter that is weighed with the particles that made it through, around or what have you will weight more due too every single particle will be wet with the oil that is used to coat them. I had thought of this earlier in the week, but then forgot. I was laying here night thinking about what not and this subject came up again, (Who would of thoughthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif ) Thanks to something the K&amp;N guy (Boat lover dude) said about the filter being designed to coat the dirt to help protect the engine better.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


In order for this test to be 100% accurate. particle of material has to be accounted for. So the filters that use oil need to have an extra step taken. They I am sure started with an oven dried weighed up sample. (That should be a given, or damn well have better been) Then after the test is run, they need to weigh up both filters, the original pan with the remains, and lastly the pan in front (The dirty side) of the tested filter. Then and only then can they determine the dry weight of what the filter could not stop.


If all they done was weigh up both filters after the test, the test needs re-run for the oiled filters. Thank you, I'm not really smart I just play a smart guy now and then.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


With that said, it is possible that the AFE may be as good, or better at stopping dirt and dust as any other filter. And the K&amp;N may be right up there.


Now lets put this over cooked bird to rest, I know that is what I am going to do. Good Night!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

One more thing and I promise I'll go to bedhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif


With this theory of mine, it also means that the oiled filters fold more dirt/dust then what is posted due too the fact that there oiled new weight has been lightened due to oil now being on the second filter, and maybe even on/in the collection pan between the two filters.

Part of the K&amp;N mision statement is "quality products that perform as promised". Another is "honesty, integrity, and respect for people".





I havent read through alllll of this long thread, but this remark caught my eye.


Tell me, when K&amp;N says I can get up to 26 HP just by using their kit, why cant I feel even one of those horses?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


And also tell me WHY (as previously mentioned) I have witnessed talc-like powder on the intake pipe with a K&amp;N?

C'mon hdmax, go ahead and stay up with us midnight shifters!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif I also thought the oil might have some effect on the test.


Spicer, you will receive no backlash from me and I am still using the UNI. I have serviced the Uni with every oil and filter change and checked the intake tube with great scrutiny each time. I have been eyeballing the afe/proguard for quite a while and will probably get one eventually. I just wish they offered that media in a drop-in. I do like the Uni though.


FWIW to you doubters regarding Spicer. I have spoken with him over the phone and communicated via PM several times and he seems like a straight shooter.


Spicer, you can expect a Paypal headed your way when I get home today.

I agree that K &amp; N should hire Teststand to re-do the test if they find Spicer's results suspect. Put up, or Shut Up!


I have been a K &amp; N fan for years, believing the hype, and never looking for facts. More HP, Higher Mileage, never checked for truth to those claims.


Jetboatr, I will be headed to the parts store today, to get either an AC or a Baldwin to replace my K&amp;N that I installed 30 days after I bought my truck. I'll put the K&amp;N in a plastic bag, and put it on the shelf in my garage. Now, I'm not from Missouri, but you and K&amp;N are going to have to SHOW ME, with independent results, that your filter is going to protect my engine as well, or better than the above mentioned filters. Until that happens, your filter is mothballed. Your sudden appearance on scene does smack of damage control from on high, as this debate has been raging since before I joined this very special and highly knowledgable group. We all come from different backgrounds with one thing in common, We want our trucks to run the best and forever!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


If your company's claims are true, then there should be absolutely no hesitation, at all to openly and independantly test your filter versus others, and have the testing company publicize the results. You can just leave the lawyers out of the whole thing! They would ***** up a wet dream, a free lunch, and a one car funeral!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Throw Up.gif


Kevlar on, including the multiple chicken plates, so take your best shots!

wow, look at all the fun I missed.

Kudos to Spicer and
kudos to Ken at Teststand.

Just curious as to whether or not any of you have noticed a change in your engine temps between a 'performance' air filter and the stock one. I know I have. I was running the UNI foamer from March '04 until this past friday. When I checked my air filter, just to see (after talking with Bill and then reading this thread) It was that of a different color, quite black, but mostly black towards the intake, because the filter is not completely perpendicular to the intake. That should really be changed don't you think? Spread the particles across the entire filter surface and not just one particular area. This allows it so that one side of the filter gets clogged up first thereby allowing more harmful particles to get in and gunk your engine. As in the case with my UNI, I removed it to have photos taken by Bill (which I need to take to his house).

As far as running the stock filter again (had a new one sitting in my room). I've noticed a minimum of a 200 degree difference in my pyro gauge (pre-turbo), it's 200 degrees cooler than running the UNI. How about that? I was somewhat surprised to see that, but the gauge does not lie (especially since I had Eric install it....hahah) Has anybody else noticed this EGT change?Edited by: Wolverine

colin banks wrote

sdaver: There is a difference between skepticism and hostile intent. We have produced industry leading products with industry leading customer care for 45 years. We are not on here to defend ourselfs, sell products or knock our competitors. Were on here to answer questions about Banks that may arise and to tell the truth about Banks when other people decide to post with no regard for the truth. All of our products are real world proven otherwise we would not sell them and we probably wouldn't have lasted this long. Our double E's are not computer hacks rather well eduacated engineers that hold engine longevity, product durablity and performance close to their vest. Competition is a great thing, knocking someone from behind a screen name is not.

jet boat wrote

I work at K&N and find those results insulting to my intelligence as well as to that of your readers. We do both inside and outside testing of our products and your results are in complete contradiction to what is fact. I am not sure if you work for AFE or another company but we have seen AFE employees post "test results" and make claims of this nature in the past. I can assure all readers that K&N filters for gas motors have 98% or better efficiency and for diesels, it is 99% or better. That is our standard and all products must meet it or they are never released. How do you think a company can stay in business for 35 years, selling over 5 million filters a year and have such a poor product as you lead to believe. Frankly, it is not possible. That fact alone is more convincing than some unknown study. If you really wanted to test filters, why did you not contact K&N and see what help they could provide you? They have decades of data and would have enjoyed laying this urban myth that they do not filter well to rest.

Rhetoric sounds familiarhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Edited by: sdaver