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Maintenance & Fluids Discuss products, techniques, intervals, and fluids for maintaining your GM truck including oil and oil additives, fuel and fuel additives, alternative fuels (Bio-D, SVO, WVO), filters, grease, and maintenance specific tools.

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Old 12-11-2012, 12:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
Doodle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPak View Post
And, the dirtier it gets, the less air it will pass. Are you going to wait until the engine starves for air before changing it?

I change my air filter every 12 months, regardless of mileage. Its cheap insurance.

Yep I know I'm doing it overkill, but whenever I have taken my filter out with a few miles on it and "knocked" it on the ground sand and crap always falls out of it. I live out in the sand hills of western KS and we get a lot of wind and blowing dirt, especially the past few years since it has rarely rained. Dust Bowl country. Figure it's good prevention and I get the filters on line for around $40, so it's not a killer.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The endless air filter debate......... Neither side budging.......... It's your money - buy all the filters you want.........
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
D_R_C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
Yep I know I'm doing it overkill, but whenever I have taken my filter out with a few miles on it and "knocked" it on the ground sand and crap always falls out of it. I live out in the sand hills of western KS and we get a lot of wind and blowing dirt, especially the past few years since it has rarely rained. Dust Bowl country. Figure it's good prevention and I get the filters on line for around $40, so it's not a killer.
It's rare to see someone NOT thinking with his pocket book, instead he's taking proper & sensible care servicing his vehicle.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:43 AM   #14 (permalink)
Doodle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_R_C View Post
It's rare to see someone NOT thinking with his pocket book, instead he's taking proper & sensible care servicing his vehicle.
This LMM has definately been the best pickup I've ever owned so far. Turned 100K the other day and it doesn't use any oil between changes. I usually just go down to 10-20% on the oil life monitor which is usually around 8-10,000 miles for me.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
dnewton3
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This is so misunderstood it's infuriating.

It is completely true to say that most filters become more efficient as they are used; they filter "better" with more loading.

When it comes to air filtration, approximately 90% of all the contamination an air filter will pass happens in the first 10% of it's lifecycle. Those of you who change filters too often are actually HURTING your wear rates via silica ingestion. I realize you're going to poo-poo that comment, so I'll give you two good sources:
Check the air filtration article in the more recent TrailerLife magazine written by Jim Allen (also fellow BITOG member of mine).
Check the FAQ section of the Parker filtration site.

So now that we've put that to bed, the other issue is air consumption. Those of you who prepose that the air filter is "maxed" for air flow right of the box, and it degrades as it is used, are not understanding the issue correctly. The air filter is not sized for max when new; it is flow sized for assured minimum requirement when ready to be changed. When it's new out of the box, it has WAY more volumetric capacity than the engine could need. Diesels (engines with no throttle plate) run essentially at WOT when it comes to air consumption. If the filter was maxed at new, and degraded with use, you'd see performance drops almost immediately and throughout the entire lifecycle. We don't because the filter is sized for more flow than neccessary.

Use the filter gage; it's reasonably accurate and is much better than some arbitrary chronological date or mileage limit you'll self-impose.

You all can do what you want, but the whole mentallity of "new is better" is proven to be wrong time and time again when it comes to filters. Same goes for the oil, but that another lecture for another day.
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Member #2 of the "OIL is OIL" association
I used to use dino oil because I didn't know any better.
Then, I used synthetics because I thought they were "best".
Now, I use dino, because I know the truth!

Last edited by dnewton3; 01-03-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
dnewton3
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Here is the article I referenced:
http://www.trailerlife.com/rv-traile...ir-filtration/


REad the whole article, but here is the quote:
"This is why early or overly frequent filter changes are not advised because, according to Wake, 90 percent of the lifetime amount of dirt that passes through a filter does so in the first 10 percent of use."

As for power loss (which can be gaged by changes in efficiency) see this statement:
"Fuel economy was not affected for the fuel-injected cars until the filter was at a very high restriction and then only by a small amount. Some cars were not affected at all. With the most affected fuel injected car, using the most stringent test, the Highway Fuel Economy Test (HFET), the drop was only 1.7 percent. In the easier urban test, the drop was only 1.1 percent on the same car."
Now - I grant you that a diesel engine runs under differing parameters, but the concept is the same, and goes to the comments I made about max flow rates and minimum assured flow. Even with a heavily heavily restricted filter, the gas engine only lost an average of 1.5% efficiency. Under "normal" circumstances, you'd never see anywhere near that amount of delta eff. shift.

I have known Jim for a while now; his efforts are resourceful. He's written many articles over the years, including ones in 4x4, TrailerLife and others. His research is top notch on this aritcle, and everything the layman needs to know is in that piece.

We've already heard of some of the "cheap insurance" comments. But how is one to define "cheap" here?
The longer you use the air filter, the "better" it does at protecting your engine. So, if your engine is well protected, then can it be that there is savings in waste??? The reality is that overly frequent filter changes are both unnecessary and actually harmful. So is that one's perception of "cheap insurance"?

Do as you see fit. But you who change filters frequnetly are doing two things:
1) wasting a LOT of money
2) actually increasing the engine wear you're trying so desparately to avoid
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2006 White Chevy CC 4x4 3500 SRW W/T
6.6L Duramax LBZ / Allison trans / manual T-case with Riverside Gear pump-rub-elimination upgrade / coolant bypass filter / PCV reroute
Fumoto drain valve / Power Steering Cooler added / Inverted Tranny Cooler / Autometer pyrometer / home-made diff cover / upgraded x-fer case skid plate

Member #2 of the "OIL is OIL" association
I used to use dino oil because I didn't know any better.
Then, I used synthetics because I thought they were "best".
Now, I use dino, because I know the truth!

Last edited by dnewton3; 01-03-2013 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:11 PM   #17 (permalink)
D_R_C
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^^^ I go by what I monitor and what I've experienced the last 40+ years, so I'll be the first to say Poo-Poo
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Last edited by D_R_C; 01-03-2013 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:19 AM   #18 (permalink)
dnewton3
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And just what is it that you monitor?

Would you have the same resources as companies like Parker and Fram, doing thousands of hours of engineering design, lab testing and field studies?
Have you the same experience in researching and writing articles as Jim?
Do you have multiple micro-analysis UOAs that confirm/contradict wear rate patterns and Si intrusion relative to air filter selection?

Please expound on your data.
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dnewton3
2006 White Chevy CC 4x4 3500 SRW W/T
6.6L Duramax LBZ / Allison trans / manual T-case with Riverside Gear pump-rub-elimination upgrade / coolant bypass filter / PCV reroute
Fumoto drain valve / Power Steering Cooler added / Inverted Tranny Cooler / Autometer pyrometer / home-made diff cover / upgraded x-fer case skid plate

Member #2 of the "OIL is OIL" association
I used to use dino oil because I didn't know any better.
Then, I used synthetics because I thought they were "best".
Now, I use dino, because I know the truth!

Last edited by dnewton3; 01-04-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:42 AM   #19 (permalink)
PiperOne
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The bump in dirt levels in the oil after an air filter change is a fact and I monitor it with oil analysis at every service.

Being a high mileage commercial user, if changing the filter even yielded .2 mpg improvement I'd be all over it....it doesn't and I monitor that too. If I saw the airflow reduction resulted in a higher soot number in my oil I'd change them...it doesn't..yep...monitoring.

My 06 has had 2 air filters in 6 years and 250,000 miles. It burns zero oil and the samples are very clean (at a 15,000 oil change interval) and it does everything I've ever asked to do performance wise. My 93 has had 4 air filters in 500,000 miles....still no oil burn or bad oil samples.

My 2 cents..
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
D_R_C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnewton3 View Post
And just what is it that you monitor?

Would you have the same resources as companies like Parker and Fram, doing thousands of hours of engineering design, lab testing and field studies?
Have you the same experience in researching and writing articles as Jim?
Do you have multiple micro-analysis UOAs that confirm/contradict wear rate patterns and Si intrusion relative to air filter selection?

Please expound on your data.
So I guess you believe everything you read from the professional people setting behind a computer, that drives a prius or smart car ?
I guess you believe the claims of 4+ MPG claims on tuners ?
Up to 10-15% more HP with our air filters, 25 + hp with our exhaust ?
On the exhaust that depends on what you already have and what your upgrading to, in HP and exhaust size.
Use our magic wand and gain 100 hp.
Only true in the Magic Kingdom.

I believe in real life experiences, and Dyno Testing the facts.
Like switching to a aFe proguard 7 airfilter on my Dmax having more airflow maf g/s proven, cooler EGT's proven, especially when towing this helps a lot, and quicker throttle response. Whiplash tested.
But NO 10-15% gains in HP, DYNO tested.
Even with 4" straight exhaust, EFI tuner, aFe airfilter no real gains in mileage, just more very noticable responce in power now @ 422 HP.
The higher the HP is when you start the lower the gains will be.
The Dmax already has a decent exhaust size.

For the guy that gets 125,000 plus miles on his air filters try monitoring your EGT's, Maf g/s, intake ambient temps over the 125+K and then report back your disappointment.

Just my 2 cents.

In my younger dumb a$$ days I abused my engines as well and would go 12-15 K between oil changes.
Saving a few $$$ was more important..
(Unless you have a oil by-pass filtering system then you can do extended oil changes)
When I tore the engine down to re-build it, it had a thick gummy oily sludge build up inside. This is when you learn about stuff.

It ran ok after the re-build but I had always run the stock air filter.
I went thru some deep water and the air filter got wet, so I finally opened up my wallet and bought a K&N, I could not believe the power difference. Whiplash tested.
This was in 1995 after this experiance since then all I run is aftermarket airfilters in everything I own,(5 vehicles) and I keep them clean.
If you monitor and compare the important PID's you to will see the gains as well.

On my 1996 34' Class A Motor Home bought new it lacked a little power getting up grades.
I eventually went with bigger exhaust (stock 2 7/8" increase to 3 1/2"), got rid of the restrictive stock muffler.
Stock it dyno 124 HP at the rear wheels, with the exhaust change it gained 22% to 151 HP added the Banks RamAir it gained another 5% to 158 HP at the rear wheels of a 34' Motor Home.
More power but NO real gains in mileage.
5-6 mpg new, 5-6 mpg 17 years later.
I only go about 3500 miles a year on it but I also do a full service every year, Oil, Oil filter, Lube and Clean the air filter.
Its always in tip-top shape, less chances of possible neglect issues.

This is when reading what some guy writes about ain't chit compared to real life experiences and actually dyno testing your vehicle, before and after changes.

Another .02 cents spent.
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EFILive AutoCal by Idaho Rob @ ATP
http://atptrucks.com/

2007 GMC Yukon Denali "BLACK" 6.2 gasser EFILive AutoCal by MJ Engineering

Last edited by D_R_C; 01-04-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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