Lubricity/Additive Study Proposal - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums
 
Home Forum Market Place Garage Lounge (0) Tuning Library DTC Tool Register Vendors
Go Back   Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums > Speciality Forums > Maintenance & Fluids
Register FAQ Forum Rules My Replies My Threads Mark Forums Read Auto EscrowAuto LoansInsurance Chat Room


Maintenance & Fluids Discuss products, techniques, intervals, and fluids for maintaining your GM truck including oil and oil additives, fuel and fuel additives, alternative fuels (Bio-D, SVO, WVO), filters, grease, and maintenance specific tools.

DieselPlace.com is the premier Duramax Diesel Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-20-2007, 10:50 AM   #1 (permalink)
SPICER
Diesel Nut
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 824
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

Lubricity/Additive Study Proposal

Hey Folks, SPICER here. I am the one who put together the air filter study a couple of years ago. The study is posted as a sticky on the "air upgrades, etc." forum. The study generated enormous discussion and revealed a lot of mis-information or propoganda generated by air filter manufacturers.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this huge discussion on lubricity and additives and adding all kinds of fluids to our tanks in order to make up for "lost lubricity". I have a few ideas.

First, we really have been speculating all along. We may know that our engines are quieter with oil added, and balance rates improve for some and not for others. But, the bottom line SHOULD be... (1)Are we improving lubricity. (2) By how much are we improving lubricity (3) What product, oil or additive, does the best job for the best price.

My idea is a simple (but not inexpensive) study on the subject. A basic HFRR wear scar test can be done on a fuel. These tests run about $150-$200 each. It measures lubricity by the width of a wear scar on a metal to metal test apparatus. The HFRR is a measure of lubricity as measured by a wear scar width. 520 microns is currently the standard that diesel fuel must meet.

My idea is to test multiple products for their ability to improve lubricity in the following manner........

-1-Purchase multiple brands of additive that claim to improve lubricity.
-2-Purchase some basic motor oil and 2 cycle oil.
-3-Do a controlled comparison of the additives. This will be a side-by-side comparison conducted in a controlled and documented manner using a CONTROL or REFERENCE sample. It is done like this.....

Purchase a few gallons of Quality diesel fuel (ULSD). Separate the fuel into different containers and add the perscribed amount of additive. Do the same with motor oil and also 2 cycle oil. Submit each sample for evaluation using the HFRR (High Frequency Reciprocating Rig) method to an independent lab. The samples would be submitted with only a NUMBER to identify the sample. ***ONE of the samples will be straight, untreated diesel fuel.*** At the end of the lab test, we will have multiple additives compared side-by-side. The data will reveal EXACTLY how much each additive adds to the lubricity of the fuel. A cost comparison could also be easily calculated.

In order for the study to be meaningful and complete, we should test as many products as we can. The most fair way to test these products should be based on interest and donations. In other words, if you really want to see product "A" tested, send me a PM and let me know how much you are willing to donate toward the test. As I said, each test will run about $150-$200. I will begin researching labs and prices, I am going off of info given to me by George Morrison at AVLube. I can promise that my intention is for revealing some great data. I am NOT looking to make a single penny. Hopefully my past work on the Air Filter Study can speak for my integrity.

Also, if anyone has some connections to other forums, let them in on it. There is a gentleman from a Dodge forum that has posted some interesting info about additives and their lack of ability to lubricate. I will try to contact him.

I will be the first to donate my time and the first $100 to test the "control" sample. If you are interested, send a PM and leave a message on this thread. PEACE. SPICER

Staff Edit:
Here are the details on how to donate and were the funds are at LUBRICITY/ADDITIVE STUDY... Here is how you can Help

__________________
"03 2500 HD, Kennedy Mega Filter, STOCK PAPER AIR FILTER, Oilguard Bypass, Primrose, Baldwin Oil Filter, ARE Camper Shell, Line X Liner, Westin Nerf Bars.

Last edited by ratlover; 02-26-2007 at 03:57 PM. Reason: adding link
Offline  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-20-2007, 02:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
dozerboy
Diesel Mythbuster
 
dozerboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: TX of course
Posts: 6,275
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

Lone Star Diesels Member

Cool I got $50 for ya and would like to get E-ZOIL Diesel Aid + Cetane Power tested.

__________________
Don't argue with an idiot, the people watching may not be able to tell you two apart.
06 GMC 2500 CCSB SLT LBZ 4X4
AAAA member # 7

These views expressed on this post are not my own, but rather randomly generated computer gibberish, and in no way should be used to judge the author's IQ or mental health.


Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2007, 03:00 PM   #3 (permalink)
ratlover
Diesel Guru
 
ratlover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Central IL
Posts: 9,091
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Send a message via Yahoo to ratlover

I would also like to propose that you test both "summer" and "winter" fuel, Bio diesel, and used oil as an additive(or at least do an analisys on it)

What you propose would take care of the lubricity.....be nice to test some other abilities and how it burns as well. At least testing how well it does its thing with water.

Cool idea spicer.

So you will need 200$ for each sample ran through? Could get pricey quick
__________________
Philip

Pioneering the Laws of Declining Standards

06 Chevy 2500HD LBZ Allison Reg cab LT
Fingerstick and blocker plate - 4"-5" Exhaust with no kitty
Assorted trans parts from SUN COAST and a 3 disk Converter and dual lift pump kit from TTS
Blizzard 810 GET WIDE
Cool switch pannel and bling bling stuff from Trippin and Max Power
265 Cooper M+S on PYO's in the winter - 33x12.5 MT ATZ's on Black painted H2's in the summer
Tie rod sleves from ATS
PPE and EFI Live

Wrecked and sold 03 Chevy - 11 Second plow truck
TTS Xtreme with a SUN COAST Trans



Click HERE to join the IL/WI DP Club
Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2007, 03:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
deere5428
Low Boost
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NE
Posts: 8
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

You might want to put an Email address up and I'll link it to the forums I'm on.
__________________
06 LBZ Ally CCSB 4x4
Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2007, 04:35 PM   #5 (permalink)
habanero
Diesel Boss
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Southington, OH
Posts: 1,033
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

You're going to need to look at more than just one fuel sample (assuming "station" fuel) for any statistical validity. Many stations use different additive packages in the fuel already, and just because a certain additive performs better than another with one fuel's existing package, it doesn't mean it will work better with another package.

The only way to truly test only the additive is to buy untreated fuel-but I'm not certain where or how you'd go about that. There may be a source for "standard" fuel that test labs use, however.

At any rate, as you know I'm all about scientific endeavour, but I think this is the type of study that you could throw a ton of money at and still not end up with meaningful results.
__________________
2003 EC/SB 4WD Stock
Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2007, 04:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
a bear
Diesel Pro
 
a bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cut Off, Louisiana
Posts: 2,434
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

Louisiana Diesel Truck Association Member

Excellant idea Spicer!

You can count me in.
__________________
2006 GMC 2500HD CCSB LBZ
B&W Gooseneck w/ Companion Hitch, 45 Gal. Transferflow Tank, Kennedy Lift Pump & Control Harness, Nicktane 2 mic cat secondary fuel filter, Kennedy 4" Exhaust, Transgo Jr., Rear Air Lift bags and SureSet Load Controller, Cognito UCA (Leveled), Bilstein 5100's w/ Sulastic Shackles, 285's on Stock 17" Wheels, 4:10 AAM Gears, Lit TTT mirrors, Custom Switch panel & SPA Digital Gauges, Linex, RetraxPro roll top, Maxbrake brake controller. Kennedy Headlight Booster Harness, Bypass coolant filter, Rampage SS Step Bars, Finger Stick & Blocked EGR, PCV Reroute

NRA Life Member
MEMBER #37 of The LOUISIANA DIESEL TRUCK ASSOCIATION

NO Amsoil Anywhere
Member #1 of the OIL is OIL association.

Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2007, 05:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
2001
Diesel Newbie
 
2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: woodstock, GA.
Posts: 31
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

Count me in for $50. how about super tech 2-cycle from WW(walmart)
__________________
01 Pewter over Charcoal Gray
4X4 HD D/A / EC / SB
4" exhaust w/ Aero Turbine
Westin running boards
Preturbo Pyrometer / Hypertech
Amsoil dual femote filter
B&W turnover ball for gooseneck
Pacbrake / Fumoto / Line X
Milligan Bio-Tech fuel conditioner
Member #29 A(ACLU)
Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2007, 07:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
SixPak
Diesel Boss
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 1,396
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2001;1605673;
Count me in for $50. how about super tech 2-cycle from WW(walmart)
I'm in for $50 also. Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus 2-cycle (TC-W3) also from Walmart, (the yellow 1-gal jug) This one, and the Super Tech 2-Cycle from Walmart are the most popular 2-cycle oils due to their cost (Walmart).

Stanadyne Performance Formula & Lubricity Formula also.

The one question on the testing is how much 2-cycle oil to put in the diesel fuel, since there is presently no recommendation or formula for its use. I've been running a pint (16-oz) to a tank (34 gal), others have been running as much as a quart or two per tank. Maybe we can also find out what the optimum dosage should be!

Come on all you "fuel additive guys" with your favorite brand..... let's get this going and help Spicer out with the cost. This will be really valuable in discovering which products really provide the lubrication our diesels need, especially since the forced introduction of ULSD.
__________________

05 Silverado 2500HD LB, CC, 4x2, LLY, Allison, Allison Deep Pan, Scangauge II, EGR Blocker, PCV Reroute, Nicktane Aux Fuel Filter w/CAT 1R0749 filter, DiPricol Pyro & Boost, PowerSteps, TxC CAI, Fan Damn, RadMod V2+Fan, Induction Overhaul Kit (LBZ MP), Coolant Filter System, Nicktane OEM Filter Adapter+CAT 1R0750 fuel filter, LT285-75-16 on PYO's. Running Rotella T6 5W-40.


Last edited by SixPak; 02-20-2007 at 07:17 PM.
Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2007, 07:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
SixPak
Diesel Boss
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 1,396
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by deere5428;1605496;
You might want to put an Email address up and I'll link it to the forums I'm on.
Just provide a link to this thread on the other diesel forums. We should get a lot of response to this!
__________________

05 Silverado 2500HD LB, CC, 4x2, LLY, Allison, Allison Deep Pan, Scangauge II, EGR Blocker, PCV Reroute, Nicktane Aux Fuel Filter w/CAT 1R0749 filter, DiPricol Pyro & Boost, PowerSteps, TxC CAI, Fan Damn, RadMod V2+Fan, Induction Overhaul Kit (LBZ MP), Coolant Filter System, Nicktane OEM Filter Adapter+CAT 1R0750 fuel filter, LT285-75-16 on PYO's. Running Rotella T6 5W-40.

Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-20-2007, 07:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
SPICER
Diesel Nut
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 824
iTrader Score: 0 reviews

The number of products tested will have to be limited to those "claiming" to aid in lubricity. A cetane boost that has no claim of lubricity makes no sense. Of course, the study will also be limited by participation.

Ratlover, the idea sounds nice, but if we test every fuel with every additive, well it gets a little exponential in cost.

habanero, I do understand that there is a lot of variation in fuel out there. I suppose that part of the purpose of a study like this is to force manufacturers to defend themselves and/or make changes. In the Air Filter Study we saw K&N make an effort to defend itself by flying me to California for 4 days and we saw Amsoil abandon their oiled foam. If an additive claims to aid in lubricity, that is what it should do. I am open to suggestions on a source for fuel. I was thinking a quality source like Flying J. All additives would be tested using fuel from a single trip to the pump.

SixPak, since most 2 cycle oils are very similar and none are really designed or indicated as a diesel fuel supplement, we would probably limit the test to a single 2-cycle oil unless we get enough interest and donations. I would LOVE to test various ratios also. Again, a cost factor. Probably in the range of 200:1. We also need to keep in mind the cost per dose. In other words, if treating with 2-cycle is $2 per tank and additive "X" is $.20 per tank, it might be better to use "X" at a higher treat rate.
It is unclear to me whether twice the additive will yield twice the benefit. We have a lot to learn. SPICER

__________________
"03 2500 HD, Kennedy Mega Filter, STOCK PAPER AIR FILTER, Oilguard Bypass, Primrose, Baldwin Oil Filter, ARE Camper Shell, Line X Liner, Westin Nerf Bars.
Offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

PLEASE READ! You must check your email inbox for the confirmation link to complete registration. Please check your spam box if you do not see the email in your inbox.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lubricity Additive Study Discussion SPICER Maintenance & Fluids 433 05-15-2015 01:13 PM
Lubricity Additive Study Question 56Nomad Maintenance & Fluids 3 01-07-2008 08:16 PM
LUBRICITY/ADDITIVE STUDY... Here is how you can Help SPICER Maintenance & Fluids 0 02-22-2007 08:44 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:08 PM.


vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.1 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
© AutoGuide
 

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0