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6.5L Diesel Engine Discuss the 6.5 GM diesel engine & associated components. Automatic transmission questions & problems belong in the 4L80/85 - 4L60E - 6L90 Transmission Forum

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Old 04-05-2016, 07:38 AM   #41 (permalink)
SickSpeedMonte
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I'm having a hard time finding info on how to test the IP housing pressure and IP transfer pump pressure (Figure 7-48). Any chance I can get a screenshot of that figure?

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Old 04-05-2016, 11:56 AM   #42 (permalink)
HeavyChevy95
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Cant help ya with screenshots, is that like snapchat..

Seriously.. For pictures, illustrations, and many more detailed diagnostic checks, download the DB2 student handbook in my signature. Its the next best thing when the factory authorized pubs and/or competent subs are nowhere to be found. DIY, and get your diesel on..

Good Luck

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Old 04-05-2016, 12:53 PM   #43 (permalink)
HeavyChevy95
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When it comes to fuel injection replacement parts, injection pumps, injectors and PMDs. Cost point aside, given the degree of difficulty to R&R said expensive s'it. I wont compromise on quality for walmart pricing.. Go OEM, GM, Stanadyne, ACDelco, or stay home.. All Im sayin'

Really why go anywhere else... Central Plains Diesel... 'nough said.

I would suggest you thoroughly test the liftpumps modified electrical system. Frankly, I'd remove the filtered and coddled raptor pumpsless and install an unfiltered OEM ACDelco EP158 liftpump on there, just for diagnostics.. You can put all that s'it back on when your done.

Sort of ironic that I bought my ACDelco EP158 at Walmart, $65.00 on-line, shipped (free) and picked up at the local store the following day or two. No bulls'it, no hassle, and no waiting in the checkout lines.. Now I check for availability at Walmart 'fore I go to local autoparts micro-warehoused outlets.

My recently fully restored fuel supply system now produces 12psi static pressure, maintains 9-11psi at idle, 5-7psi at 75mph, occassionally dropping to 4-5 when the DS4 goes to binge drinking. Try as I might, foot deep in 'er ***, cant get fuel pressure to dip to the 3psi minimum yet, but I suspect that will change as the FFM element becomes ever more dirtier with age.

Point being.. If the rotary vane type Raptor lift pump isnt receiving full voltage, it reacts just like the OEM solenoid type liftpump and slows down 'production' accordingly BUT unlike the OEM lift pump, the raptor doesnt have an inherent fail by-pass and becomes an unwanted restriction when the IP gets thirsty, causes momentary bouts of fuel starvation...
Dont even get me started on the pre-filter, any less than triple digit micron rating amounts to a pre-restriction for the IP and yet, folks spend a small fortune if not add on a rolling refinery to further protect a $100.00 electric pump that takes all of 15 minutes to R&R when they need to concern themselves more with just making sure the $800+ IP is receiving proper fuel pressure and sufficient flow..
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Old 04-06-2016, 07:31 AM   #44 (permalink)
SickSpeedMonte
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I put a nylon line on the return and didn't see a single bubble. My LP pressure stays at 8-10 psi, so the pressure and volume flow rate are not the cause of my problem. If it couldn't supply the needed volume, the pressure would drop. I tried bleeding the injectors again, and #1 and #7 keep spitting out bubbles. The return was free of bubbles during that process. The other lines will spray fuel out. 1 and 7 will only do that on the initial opening but not again after. Bubbles form between the line and tube nut. I'm going to swap #1 with #3 injectors and see if the behavior follows. Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of time to play with it during the week.

Next step will be to test them. I might be able to take them to the local tractor dealer and have them do it... friend of a friend situation. Otherwise I'm stuck either buying the tester or paying someone to do it.
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1993 Chevy K3500 CCLB Dually, 6.5TD, 4L80e, 4WD on Alcoa's with 265/70R19.5's. 4" Tough Country lift, forged lower arms
NAPA pre-filter, Raptor 100 GPH LP, OPS realy mod, Lube Specialists oil cooler kit, Glow Shift boost and supply fuel pressure gauges, 3" stainless DP, 4" stainless turbo back, 2.25" stainless crossover, all new hardlines underneith, and a 14 bolt full floater out of a Krispy Kreme delivery van

Last edited by SickSpeedMonte; 04-06-2016 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:12 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Do you still have your stock cores to toss back in and try? Whole lot cheaper than going to have them tested.

Badger is pretty good at testing them. I've used 4 sets of them on various trucks including my current one. Be careful not to bend the hard lines or over-torque the flare nuts.
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:44 PM   #46 (permalink)
SickSpeedMonte
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No I sent back the cores already. I wish I would have held on to them longer.
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1993 Chevy K3500 CCLB Dually, 6.5TD, 4L80e, 4WD on Alcoa's with 265/70R19.5's. 4" Tough Country lift, forged lower arms
NAPA pre-filter, Raptor 100 GPH LP, OPS realy mod, Lube Specialists oil cooler kit, Glow Shift boost and supply fuel pressure gauges, 3" stainless DP, 4" stainless turbo back, 2.25" stainless crossover, all new hardlines underneith, and a 14 bolt full floater out of a Krispy Kreme delivery van
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:52 PM   #47 (permalink)
HeavyChevy95
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'I put a nylon line on the return and didn't see a single bubble.'

Did you try the inlet side beforehand or just skip to the end of the rather laborious process?

Other educational and/or reference materials..

"It is important to note that a positive displacement pump (vane, gerotor, gear, etc.) creates flow, not pressure – pressure is only a signal of the resistance to flow!"






TRAINING: All about the Fuel Pressure Regulator: Does It Need to be Replaced?

Stanadyne DB2 Fuel Injection Pump

Section 4-2 Methods of Injection See 'Distributor-Type Fuel Systems @ DB2

Failure Analysis Of Fuel Injection Pumps (DB2)

Oil Burner- Stanadyne DB2 diesel fuel injection pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSpeedMonte View Post
The truck was having a rough time starting with a lot of smoke but it would clear up and run fine after 15 seconds or so. The injectors had probably never been changed with 135k miles on the truck, so I bought some rebuilt ones from Badger.
My first thought was faulty glowplugs, not injectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSpeedMonte View Post
White. Looks just like it did on start up. It still starts rough as hell too. $400 into this project, 3 weekends, and all I've managed to do is break stuff and make it run worse.



I really hope not... It just never ends with this damn thing. Did I mention the passenger side GP's are stuck in there so hard that I broke the hex off of the body on the first one I tried? I have no idea what to do about that...

Is it common to only get 135k miles before having to replace the entire fuel system? The IP is the only thing fuel touches from the sender to the injectors that I haven't replaced at this point.
Replace all the injectors, hell even replace the IP, still wont help improve 'rough cold starts' if all the glowplugs are faulty..


Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSpeedMonte View Post
Thanks Freddy. I bought one and had to replace the pigtail because my old one had two male terminals sticking out rather than the shrouded terminals for the weatherpack connector. It made no difference unfortunately.
IIRC thats called a coolant temp switch (CTS)



Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSpeedMonte View Post
The one on the crossover is the one that was broken. I replaced it with the one with the weatherpak. I can't find the other one on any of the parts sites that I use. Could the smoking and missing has something to do with the cold advance? I could try jumping the terminals on the connector to the sensor on the crossover.

Yes faulty CTS could contribute. Thats what 'Duratys' was referring to in post #15 that you so quickly dismissed too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSpeedMonte View Post
Thanks for the number. $100 for that sensor, wow. I don't think its going to fix the rough running and the smoke though.

Now that youve replaced all the injectors and it only made the problem(s) worse, your not going to like my next suggestion that is to replace all the glowplugs and the glowplug relay/controller before you do anything else, then fix the CTS and make sure to follow proper startup procedures.

Some more technical crap that may help you....



Housing Pressure Cold Advance (HPCA) Solenoid Check
1. Bring the engine to a temperature of 80° F (27° C).
2. If available, install a diesel injection timing meter (J 33300).
3. Start and operate the engine, noting its speed.
4. Remove the electrical connector for the HPCA solenoid and note the engine speed:
• If engine speed decreases (and timing retards), the solenoid action is correct.
• If engine speed does not decrease (no timing retard), do the following things:
A. Measure the voltage at the HPCA solenoid connector:
- If voltage measured is battery voltage, go to step B.
- If voltage measured is zero, repair the circuit from the GAGES fuse to the solenoid and re-check the solenoid operation.
B. Remove the injection pump governor cover and do the following things:
- Connect a jumper wire from the HPCA solenoid to the vehicle battery negative terminal.
- Momentarily connect and disconnect a jumper wire from the HPCA solenoid to the vehicle battery
positive terminal.
- Observe the solenoid action:
• If it operates, check the housing pressure regulator and fuel return system for a restriction.
• If it does not operate, go to step C.
C. Measure the resistance between the HPCA solenoid frame and the injection pump governor cover:
- If the resistance measured is less that 0.5 ohm, replace the solenoid, install the governor cover and recheck the solenoid operation.
- If the resistance measured is more than 0.5 ohm, repair it, install the governor cover and re-check the solenoid operation (refer to Figure 7-51 on page 7-54).
5. Move the ignition switch to the OFF position.
6. Install the electrical connector for the HPCA solenoid from the injection pump.
7. Remove the diesel injection timing meter, if used.



Fast Idle/Cold Advance Circuit



The fast idle/cold advance circuit has the components shown in Figure 8-28. When the ignition switch is in the CRANK or RUN position, power through the GAGES fuse is present at the contacts of the temperature switch.

At temperatures below approximately 85° F (29° C), the temperature switch (in coolant crossover) contacts close, providing power to both the fast idle and HPCA solenoids. As part of the starting procedure, the vehicle driver must first press the accelerator pedal to allow the fast idle solenoid plunger to extend. When it is ON, the fast idle solenoid (mounted on an external injection pump bracket) holds the throttle shaft away from its low idle position slightly to increase engine idle speed.

At the same time, the HPCA solenoid (mounted inside the injection pump governor cover) unseats the valve of the housing pressure regulator to provide timing advance (see page 7-44 for more information). When engine coolant temperature exceeds 95° F (35° C), the temperature switch contacts open, disabling the system.

The fast idle solenoid has a resistance of 20 ohms, and the HPCA solenoid resistance is 24 ohms. Diagnosis of the HPCA solenoid is similar to the fuel shutoff solenoid, with initial checks involving a “click” test.



Tech Tip: Diagnosing Fuel Pumps and Injectors
One of the first questions that should always be answered when diagnosing a fuel-related complaint on a fuel-injected engine is, “What is the fuel pressure?”

TSB- Suction/ Vacuum Side Diesel Fuel Filters








Good Luck..








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Old 04-06-2016, 04:26 PM   #48 (permalink)
SickSpeedMonte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyChevy95 View Post
'I put a nylon line on the return and didn't see a single bubble.'

Did you try the inlet side beforehand or just skip to the end of the rather laborious process?


I figure if there are no bubbles by the end of the line, they aren't upstream either. If there are, I'll track them down. I have reason to believe that the upstream system is fine based on the background. The truck ran fine prior to me affecting the system with injectors. This isn't a truck that showed up in my bay running poorly; there is known context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyChevy95 View Post
Other educational and/or reference materials..

"It is important to note that a positive displacement pump (vane, gerotor, gear, etc.) creates flow, not pressure – pressure is only a signal of the resistance to flow!"



Understood, but can we at least agree that if the engine is consuming fuel at some non-zero rate and there is still pressure in the supply line, that is an indication that supply fuel flow rate is not the cause of the problem? Fuel is incompressible. If fuel is being consumed at a rate faster than it is being supplied, pressure drops nearly immediately. If the LP can't flow the volume needed, pressure drops as a result. Positive displacement pump or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyChevy95 View Post
My first thought was faulty glowplugs, not injectors.


Replace all the injectors, hell even replace the IP, still wont help improve 'rough cold starts' if all the glowplugs are faulty..

I would agree with you. I tested the GP's on the driver's side and they were fine. I coudln't access the ones on the passenger side without removing the turbo. Because the turbo bolts were seized, I removed the passenger fender to gain access and it was an opportune time to change injectors. The main reason I did injectors was because I have seen over and over that they are good for 100k miles. This thread wasn't about the cold start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyChevy95 View Post


IIRC thats called a coolant temp switch (CTS)






Yes faulty CTS could contribute. Thats what 'Duratys' was referring to in post #15 that you so quickly dismissed too...
I didn't dismiss that it needs to be replaced, but it's not the cause the engine running rough once warmed up. It's a switch that's either open or closed. I tried both, neither had an effect. I didn't include it in my post this morning but I did jumper the cold advance and high idle terminals to the battery too. The cold advance is inop. The switch needs to be replaced, but I don't have one and in the mean time I would like to identify the root cause of my problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyChevy95 View Post

Now that youve replaced all the injectors and it only made the problem(s) worse, your not going to like my next suggestion that is to replace all the glowplugs and the glowplug relay/controller before you do anything else, then fix the CTS and make sure to follow proper startup procedures.

I will replace the GP's and the controller. I have planned to do that all along. I have planned to fix the switch; I never said I wouldn't. Both affect cold starts and neither explains why the truck runs like it does after fully warming up. No reason not to continue troubleshooting in the mean time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyChevy95 View Post

Some more technical crap that may help you...



Good Luck..

The procedures are MUCH appreciated. Even if I don't follow every sub-step, they tell me how the system operates and give me an understanding that helps me troubleshoot. For that, I am genuinely grateful. I also appreciate that you have encouraged me to think more critically about troubleshooting.
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1993 Chevy K3500 CCLB Dually, 6.5TD, 4L80e, 4WD on Alcoa's with 265/70R19.5's. 4" Tough Country lift, forged lower arms
NAPA pre-filter, Raptor 100 GPH LP, OPS realy mod, Lube Specialists oil cooler kit, Glow Shift boost and supply fuel pressure gauges, 3" stainless DP, 4" stainless turbo back, 2.25" stainless crossover, all new hardlines underneith, and a 14 bolt full floater out of a Krispy Kreme delivery van
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Old 04-06-2016, 05:14 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Is this a new Bosch injector? or rebuilt with genuine Bosch nozzle?

If not, we cannot eliminate the fact that you get bad ones.
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Old 04-06-2016, 06:07 PM   #50 (permalink)
SickSpeedMonte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJNet View Post
Is this a new Bosch injector? or rebuilt with genuine Bosch nozzle?

If not, we cannot eliminate the fact that you get bad ones.
Fred (Badger Diesel) says he rebuilds them according to Bosch procedures and he's very reputable. I might have a line on some that I can borrow to test with.

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