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Old 10-29-2007, 06:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
83 chif
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CUCV Injector Pump and WVO

okay, so waste veggie oil will clog up my injector pump, but someone told me that a CUCV injector pump is multifuel (I never heard that before), so does that make it less finicky and able to run on thicker unheated WVO?? thanks!

- doug
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Old 10-29-2007, 06:37 PM   #2 (permalink)
High Sierra 2500
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Not really. Any pump will run on WVO its just a matter of how long it will last. I haven't really found any problems running unheated oil but I figure I'm better safe than sorry so I heat my oil. The military pumps with the "arctic fuel kit" have some hardened internal parts to allow operation on thinner fuels like kerosene mixes etc. without damage but are not neccessarily more tolerant of thick oil.
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Last edited by High Sierra 2500; 10-29-2007 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
jdemaris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 83 chif View Post
okay, so waste veggie oil will clog up my injector pump, but someone told me that a CUCV injector pump is multifuel (I never heard that before), so does that make it less finicky and able to run on thicker unheated WVO?? thanks!
- doug
All rotary injection pumps are intolerant to low-lube fuel. With the 6.2 pump, it's not an issue of clogging - it's an issue of burning the pump up to a point where it's not worth repairing. The rotary section of the pump that distributes fuel to one cylinder at a time (head & rotor) is exactly the same, civilian or military and that is the part that siezes and/or galls from thin low-lube fuel, or from lack of lube from fuel that's too thick.

The Stanadyne "Arctic" kit only replaces the fuel pump liner and blades at the end of the pump. The military tested it and found that it makes no difference in longevity - i.e. no better than the standard pump parts.
Some miltary pumps have the kit and some civilian pumps do also.

My opinion is - if you're a person that doesn't fix his own pumps - I think you've got to be nuts to run WVO. You wont' save a penny in the long run. Even if it works pretty well but shortens the life-span of your pump by half - you'll still probably lose. On the other hand - if you're careful with the WVO, and . . . are willing to fix and keep a few spare pumps around - at a low cost - then it might work out for you. Some guys line their shelves with spare pumps and only spend $25 - $50 each for them. But, others pay $350 or more and also the labor charges to install -every time there's a problem. That makes NO sense at all if savings is wanted.

An in-line pumps is far more rugged and tolerant to different fuels than the Stanadyne rotary is. But, not many rigs have them - just a few Cummins, Mercedes, and Isuzus.

Here's an excerp from National Defense Magazine that mentions the Arctic kit and pump failures:

" July 2004, "Army Ponders New Diesel Engine for Humvee Trucks," notes that maintenance nightmares have been experienced in Iraq because engines regularly break down and often must be replaced after only 1,000 to 2,000 miles of operation. Much of the blame for this is placed on the bolted-on armor protection that adds weight to the vehicles. However, the inability of the rotary-distribution, fuel-injection pumps to operate satisfactorily for sustained periods of heavy-duty operation is probably a contributing factor, especially when low-viscosity fuel is used in a hot environment. Interestingly, the fuel-injection pumps in many, if not all, of the HMMWVs operating in Southwest Asia have been retrofitted with Stanadyne's Arctic Fuel Conversion Retrofit Kit. This kit apparently has done little to offset the significant increases in maintenance that have been experienced recently.
Rethinking the SFC
Combat operations that occur in higher temperature environments certainly will intensify the operational and maintenance problems of diesel-powered vehicles and equipment with fuel-lubricated fuel-injection pumps. Since almost half of the Army's diesel vehicles and equipment have rotary-distribution, fuel-injection pumps, a solution is urgently needed. "
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1982 K10 PU 6.2 diesel,1983 (two) Blazers 6.2 diesel, TH400, 1983 K5 Blazer with 6.2 diesel, 4sp man. OD trans. and Chalet pop-up camper body.
1986 K5 Blazer 6.2 diesel, 700R4 trans.- with Halmark pop-up camper body.
1987 V20 4WD Suburban 6.2 diesel, 1988 K5 Blazer 6.2 diesel, 700R4. 1989 GMC 3/4 ton, 4WD Suburban, 6.2 diesel, TH400 trans.
1991 Suburban 4WD 6.2 diesel 700R4 trans.
1981 (two of them) Chevy Chevette with 1.8 diesel and 5 sp. trans.
1985 Isuzu P'UP 4WD pickup with 2.2 diesel
1991 (Two of them) Volkswagen Jetta 1.6 diesel
1985 Ford F250 4WD ex-cab, longbed, 6.9 diesel
1994 Ford F250 4WD ex-cab, longbed, 7.3 IDI turbodiesel.
1983 Mercedes 300D five-cylinder turbo-diesel
1992 Dodge D200 4WD Cummins turbo-diesel, intercooled with 5 spd Gertrag
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:06 PM   #4 (permalink)
rtarh2o
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Seems to me like you still wouldn't loose even if you had to replace the IP yearly running WVO. If you drive 20,000 miles a year, average 20mpg, that is 1000 gallons. Multiply that times $3.00 per gallon (probably $4.00 very soon) and that is $3,000 per year you save, subtract the $350 yearly for the IP and you are still saving $2,650, that is over $200 per month, that to me is worth doing. Even it was closer to break even the difference in emissions is worth it, plus I like the idea of not adding to the profits of the oil companies.
Rusty
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Yeah, you can figure it a lot of different ways. I personally see it as a winning situation if you can find a reliable source. I think that with the proper setup you don't need to worry about IP replacements all the time but nobody with the right setup and a rotary IP has logged enough miles yet to prove it.
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Old 10-30-2007, 08:38 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Sierra 2500 View Post
Yeah, you can figure it a lot of different ways. I personally see it as a winning situation if you can find a reliable source. I think that with the proper setup you don't need to worry about IP replacements all the time but nobody with the right setup and a rotary IP has logged enough miles yet to prove it.
There's a lot of scientific test data on rotary injection pumps and wear with WVO - in Europe - dating back for many years. Diesels have always been more common there and there's been a lot of experimentation with alternative diesel fuels.

For some reason - it is sometimes regarded as a "new thing", here, and it's not. The one difference though - is that Stanadyne pumps are a rarity overseas. So, the test data is on other rotary pumps that are similar.
When the Stanadyne pump was invented - here - many places overseas bought a license to copy it - including CAV, Bosch, and Diesel Kiki. Part of that license agreement is - that Stanadyne does not sell pumps over there - and they don't sell pumps here. Obviously, this agreement has some loopholes considering the many Cummins, Volkswagens, Volvos, Peugots, Isuzus, etc. that have been sold in the U.S. with the European pumps.
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1982 K10 PU 6.2 diesel,1983 (two) Blazers 6.2 diesel, TH400, 1983 K5 Blazer with 6.2 diesel, 4sp man. OD trans. and Chalet pop-up camper body.
1986 K5 Blazer 6.2 diesel, 700R4 trans.- with Halmark pop-up camper body.
1987 V20 4WD Suburban 6.2 diesel, 1988 K5 Blazer 6.2 diesel, 700R4. 1989 GMC 3/4 ton, 4WD Suburban, 6.2 diesel, TH400 trans.
1991 Suburban 4WD 6.2 diesel 700R4 trans.
1981 (two of them) Chevy Chevette with 1.8 diesel and 5 sp. trans.
1985 Isuzu P'UP 4WD pickup with 2.2 diesel
1991 (Two of them) Volkswagen Jetta 1.6 diesel
1985 Ford F250 4WD ex-cab, longbed, 6.9 diesel
1994 Ford F250 4WD ex-cab, longbed, 7.3 IDI turbodiesel.
1983 Mercedes 300D five-cylinder turbo-diesel
1992 Dodge D200 4WD Cummins turbo-diesel, intercooled with 5 spd Gertrag
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Old 10-30-2007, 09:09 AM   #7 (permalink)
jdemaris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtarh2o View Post
Seems to me like you still wouldn't loose even if you had to replace the IP yearly running WVO. If you drive 20,000 miles a year, average 20mpg, that is 1000 gallons. Multiply that times $3.00 per gallon (probably $4.00 very soon) and that is $3,000 per year you save, subtract the $350 yearly for the IP and you are still saving $2,650, that is over $200 per month, that to me is worth doing. Even it was closer to break even the difference in emissions is worth it, plus I like the idea of not adding to the profits of the oil companies.
Rusty
I figure it differently. I know of many cases where a non-mechanic 6.2 owner paid $1000 for a pump change. Remember, that usually when a pump does fail from WVO, it siezes and is basically not repairable - and you don't get any core-credit for it. So, a replacement pump costs a lot more. And, many WVO owners - when all is figured - pay over a $1.50 per gallon. Sometimes more depending on how much time and fuel you spending getting the WVO and how much you pretreat it. And . . . the treated WVO lowers fuel mileage a bit. An average of 20 MPG is silly. Depending on the truck and area - an average of 15 MPG is more like it.
Then - there are the legal issues and costs. There is a Federal exemption of no more than 133 gallons per month. But - that is Federal. Many states have their own regs and tax requirements and some will fine you $50 per day for not first reporting your use and keeping a log. And, that's in addition to the state tax you are required to pay on home-made fuel.

So, with your proposed 20,000 miles a year and one pump change - could easily be this - which is much more realistic.

If using 100% WVO - and driving 20,000 miles with one pump replacement needed.
1,333 gallons of fuel - costing -with state tax - $2332
One pump replacement done at a shop - I'll figure low at $800
Total cost for one year @ 20,000 miles with WVO - $3,132.
And, that's not putting any value on the time you spend getting WVO, and treating it.

If using pump diesel - and driving 20,000 miles
1,176 gallons - costing $3.10 per gallon - $3,645.

Now, if you don't care about legal issues and want to risk things a bit, you can save more. But - if that is the case - you could just buy heating oil - which is much better for the pump than pump fuel or WVO and:

20,000 miles will use 1176 gallons at$2.60 per gallon = $3,057.
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1982 K10 PU 6.2 diesel,1983 (two) Blazers 6.2 diesel, TH400, 1983 K5 Blazer with 6.2 diesel, 4sp man. OD trans. and Chalet pop-up camper body.
1986 K5 Blazer 6.2 diesel, 700R4 trans.- with Halmark pop-up camper body.
1987 V20 4WD Suburban 6.2 diesel, 1988 K5 Blazer 6.2 diesel, 700R4. 1989 GMC 3/4 ton, 4WD Suburban, 6.2 diesel, TH400 trans.
1991 Suburban 4WD 6.2 diesel 700R4 trans.
1981 (two of them) Chevy Chevette with 1.8 diesel and 5 sp. trans.
1985 Isuzu P'UP 4WD pickup with 2.2 diesel
1991 (Two of them) Volkswagen Jetta 1.6 diesel
1985 Ford F250 4WD ex-cab, longbed, 6.9 diesel
1994 Ford F250 4WD ex-cab, longbed, 7.3 IDI turbodiesel.
1983 Mercedes 300D five-cylinder turbo-diesel
1992 Dodge D200 4WD Cummins turbo-diesel, intercooled with 5 spd Gertrag
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Old 10-30-2007, 09:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
Veggieburninburban
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I would have to agree with jdmaris on this one. You better know how to change IP's and you better have a cheap source for used ones too.

That said, I have 24,000 miles on my civilian J-code 6.2 on WVO. The first 5,000 miles claimed the lives of 4 IP's (one of which was out of a CUCV, a 4267). The last 19,000 miles have all been on the same pump. In my defense, though, I was running my WVO in some extremely cold times last winter to test the limits of my design.
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Old 10-30-2007, 01:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Low Lube?

Now I've already put on the boots, pants and jacket and I'm getting my flame-proof helmet on as I type . . .

But doesn't biodiesel lube better than regular diesel and isn't WVO (warmed not shaken) pure oil - so doesn't the "low lube" argument go out the window?

Am I just that dense, but isn't the gunk coming from the either trashed rubber in the lines or the varnish in the fuel tank after switching to BioD (like all the ships are seeing (after testing B100) having to change their filters rather rapidly until the varnish clears)?

David
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Old 10-30-2007, 02:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DAM88 View Post
Now I've already put on the boots, pants and jacket and I'm getting my flame-proof helmet on as I type . . .

But doesn't biodiesel lube better than regular diesel and isn't WVO (warmed not shaken) pure oil - so doesn't the "low lube" argument go out the window?

Seems you need to clarify exactly what it is your are talking about. Biofuel can mean many things depending on contect, and WVO can also be many things - and the two terms are not the same.

There are many virgin vegetable oils, and blends made from them that have better lube qualities then diesel fuel.

For anything sold at the pump and called "biofuel" it has to meet strict requirements.

But, WVO is not virgin oil, nor has its content been specially selected for use in a diesel engine. It can be just about anything that someone throws a French fry or doughnut into to get it cooked.

So, what exactly are you talking about?
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1982 K10 PU 6.2 diesel,1983 (two) Blazers 6.2 diesel, TH400, 1983 K5 Blazer with 6.2 diesel, 4sp man. OD trans. and Chalet pop-up camper body.
1986 K5 Blazer 6.2 diesel, 700R4 trans.- with Halmark pop-up camper body.
1987 V20 4WD Suburban 6.2 diesel, 1988 K5 Blazer 6.2 diesel, 700R4. 1989 GMC 3/4 ton, 4WD Suburban, 6.2 diesel, TH400 trans.
1991 Suburban 4WD 6.2 diesel 700R4 trans.
1981 (two of them) Chevy Chevette with 1.8 diesel and 5 sp. trans.
1985 Isuzu P'UP 4WD pickup with 2.2 diesel
1991 (Two of them) Volkswagen Jetta 1.6 diesel
1985 Ford F250 4WD ex-cab, longbed, 6.9 diesel
1994 Ford F250 4WD ex-cab, longbed, 7.3 IDI turbodiesel.
1983 Mercedes 300D five-cylinder turbo-diesel
1992 Dodge D200 4WD Cummins turbo-diesel, intercooled with 5 spd Gertrag
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