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Break this! I dare ya!

39K views 198 replies 39 participants last post by  Diesel Wanna Be 
#1 ·


Bottom one is Auto Zone. Top one is mine. :cool:
 

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#2 ·
OMG.........that is gorgeous looking. Where do we get one and how much we talking?
 
#3 · (Edited)
well Ive never broken a stock one sooooo................

and you basically did nothing for the actual weak point of the arm (the stud), so whats the point of making the body huge? Its not like people are snapping them clean in half.

I mean its cool and gee-whiz fancy and shiny, dont get me wrong. But I just think there are cheaper/simpler ways to go about this.

EDIT: and wtf do you need huge pitman/idler arms for anyways? You have a 2wd truck/
 
#4 ·
Go away Ben... Take your attitude with you.
 
#6 ·
I just asked a few simple questions??

And you arent a vendor here, so stop getting all bent out of shape that im potentially blowing up your spot to try to sell them......
 
#121 · (Edited)
Both the pitman arm and the idler arm are needed, not just the idler arm
Others have said this too, but this source:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4527583&postcount=6 "Make a pitman arm to match"
is one of the more authoritative, according to these two guys:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4539726&postcount=28 "Listen to this man, he's been building this type stuff since like 03 or 04..."
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4539736&postcount=29 "he was the first to build and sell steering parts to hold up"

But as the OP explains here:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4527657&postcount=7 "You really wouldn't want/need to do a pitman arm too."
and here:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4574902&postcount=75 "It's a real pain in the arse and very costly to CNC splines..."
making an all-new CNC'd pitman arm is not nearly as easy as the idler arm.

...what about the other side?
Why did you start with the ilder vs pitman arm?
That's why he made the idler arm first.

That's also another reason (in addition to cost) why the "solution" needs to utilize the oem forging, but with a better, user-replaceable bushing, and maybe an upgraded chromoly stud.
 
#10 ·
is that a ball joint used for the pivot? looks cool. you can replaced the wearable part instead of the whole arm
 
#11 ·
Idler arms don't have ball joints. They have a plastic bushing inside that the pin rotates on. Here's what the guts of a stock idler arm look like.



Mine replaces that cheap plastic piece with a pair of ball bearings capable of supporting 3700lbs of dynamic load each. When the ball bearings wear out, you replace them with 2 new ones (20/ea), available from any bearing supplier in the world. I picked mine up from McMaster-Carr.

Once we revise a few last minute changes to this prototype and get things on the move, I'm going to start in on a end user rebuildable pitman arm. The pitman arm will have a ball joint. Without a ball joint in at least one side, you will have parts breakage due to chassis flex.
 

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#18 ·
Idler arms don't have ball joints. They have a plastic bushing inside that the pin rotates on. Here's what the guts of a stock idler arm look like.



Mine replaces that cheap plastic piece with a pair of ball bearings capable of supporting 3700lbs of dynamic load each. When the ball bearings wear out, you replace them with 2 new ones (20/ea), available from any bearing supplier in the world. I picked mine up from McMaster-Carr.

Once we revise a few last minute changes to this prototype and get things on the move, I'm going to start in on a end user rebuildable pitman arm. The pitman arm will have a ball joint. Without a ball joint in at least one side, you will have parts breakage due to chassis flex.
NO! Do NOT put a ball joint in there! The rigidity will only be as good as the sum of both arms and if only one arm is a fixed object, then that arm will take all the stress! This will defeat the purpose of going with HD arms! I can tell you that if the Pitman has a movable ball joint, I will never be interested in them! I do hope you can produce these for the rest of us. Please do also consider design and fitment of at least the Cognito support kit
 
#16 ·
#15 ·
Yup, plan on advertising here when they're ready to go! Until then, this is just for me.
 
#14 ·
Nice piece of work.
 
#17 ·
from what i read, the ppe did really work all the well, especially for the price
 
#21 ·
and you basically did nothing for the actual weak point of the arm (the stud), so whats the point of making the body huge? Its not like people are snapping them clean in half.

IMHO Dura has asked an honest question, no offense meant.
The arm is real pretty, but the stud is the same size.
Thanks,
Lee
 
#22 · (Edited)
The stud isn't the issue, the support of the stud IS the issue. The cheap plastic bushing wears out in short order. How would you change the stud so that it still fits with the stock part? The stud in my arm is made from 4140H material. I'm quite certain that it's a higher grade material than anything from the replacement arm makers.

*edit*
If you don't think the steel is adequate, please state which you feel IS adequate and I'll make you one up special.
*endedit*
 
#25 ·
I think we (Maybe just me) need to step back here for a minute. Very RARELY does anyone who's going to make a part commercially solicit input from anyone. Here, everyone in the community has the opportunity for input, but, input will only help if it's constructive, using logic.

So, this being the case, if you have constructive input, add it in this format:

Change to be made:

Why the change is beneficial:
 
#27 ·
Wasn't trying to do any of those things. Chalk it up to bad communication on my part.

Yeah, forgot about Cognito having it patented both with a brace and double-captured arms.

Without any emotion behind it, is there really a ball joint in the pitman arm? If so, this could be why the centerlink so easily allows the arms to wear out, as the Idler arm is taking all of the stress.
 
#28 ·
Yes, there is a ball joint, and again, there has to be one or stuff breaks. I have a solution for it however... One that allows side to side movement due to chassis flex, but doesn't allow radial movement of the centerlink.. It'll all be solved with time. One project at a time.
 
#29 ·
#31 ·
Quote:
I did that and got a cease and desist letter from Cognito's patent attorney. They have the market cornered on any "brace that prevents rotational movement of the centerlink by capturing the mounting points of the idler or pitman arm." So unless you can convince Cognito that their stuff is insufficient, or negotiate a means for me to do this without paying them, it ain't gonna happen. You're stuck with their product, which they may or may not ever change.

Is it really possible that they have a patent on the idea of supporting the arms? I can understand if you were gonna copy what they have but saying that you can't come up with any brace that prevents rotational movement seems a bit much. I didn't think it was legal to do that.

DWB, your arm looks great, but what is to keep the stud from snapping just like the OE and Moog's? I'm really not knocking what you have, but after a stud snapping on me, I'm still worried even with that great looking arm you have.
 
#32 ·
DWB, your arm looks great, but what is to keep the stud from snapping just like the OE and Moog's? I'm really not knocking what you have, but after a stud snapping on me, I'm still worried even with that great looking arm you have.
Not sure what stud that the OEM guys use. I'm using at minimum a 4140H chromoly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41xx_steel

Also considering to upping it to 4150 or 4340.

The arm/pin will be lifetime warranty. The only conditions to the warranty will be photos of it on the vehicle, and description of terrain/condition that caused the final failure. Warranty transferable. Consumer pays for return shipping of damaged part and new part.

I don't think it could get much better than that on a warranty, can it? Combine that with me wanting this thing to be bulletproof... I don't want one coming back for warranty, no more than you want to have to change it out because of sub-par materials or design.

Once this is rolling and I have some profits and cash flow, I'll start work on a pitman arm.
 
#33 ·
Subscribing.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Very interested in what you have made there, looks top notch. Also, would you min PMing me a copy of Cognito's letter to you? Or if you prefer E-mail, request so in a PM.
 
#35 ·
Sure, if you pay my attorney's bill for analyzing it and the patent research.
 
#36 ·
I likely won't need it analyzed. Also I wonder if it's only a US patent....
 
#39 ·
Okay, already found a way around it :)
 
#107 · (Edited)
Me too.

Not due to any flaw in the patent, but due the way Cognito designed their actual brace, made of several parts...
...unless Cognito thinks their patent covers every form of what is commonly called (at your local Home Depot) an "L-Bracket"
just because the particular "L-Brackets" included in their kit happen to be made in a particular size and shape.
Cognito cannot patent an "L-Bracket" (based on a specific size alone) and the rest of the kit is off-the-shelf parts.

Moreover, it probably doesn't even need to be an "L" shaped bracket. The closer to a straight line (clearance permitting), the better, like this one:

Cognito annot stop anybody from selling JUST this part shown above just because it has a certain size and spacing similar to a "proprietary" part covered under their patent.
The part shown above is a double rod end, plain and simple, and Cognito has NO control over what sizes, or offsets, parts like these are made in.
Cognito also cannot stop anybody from selling a threaded link with a certain length or offset that could be used to connect two standard rod ends, and might end up with a center-to-center spacing that happens to be the same as a "proprietary" part covered under their patent.

Although they sure might be able to have their lawyer say "BOO" and scare their would-be competitor into scurrying away.

Sorry for the off-topicness here. That's about all I have to add.
 

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#40 ·
It's all in the wording. You or I can make something that will do this, it just cannot do it in the manner that they specifically outline.
 
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