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Help White Smoke - Timing?

20K views 60 replies 3 participants last post by  Bob_wewer 
#1 ·
I need help. My K3500 dually is down. I have had it for 2 months. It always seemed to smoke a lot more than my other trucks I have had. It seemed to loose power one night. Next morning it sounded like the exhaust manifold was blown. I drove it to find someone to look at it. Not smart. Came home after about 40 miles. Running rough with a knock (light sound) I drove slow. I fixed right side exhaust maniforld. Truck still was running with same knock and engine timing valvle slapt or something. The knock was a timing issue. So, I replace the timing chain. The result was a little less knock but a lot of smoke. It will bog and pour out smoke. I replaced the crank position sensor. I changed the timing offset gizmo on the pass side of the IP ( It was from an old IP _ I know it was a working pull from my 96) Truck is smoking.

My question:
I had to pull the IP back when I did the T Chain. I know that I rotated both the crank and the cam (together) when I turned the cam nut. I turned it back about what I thought it was but I think I went back(clockwise)too far. When this movement occurred it did not affect valve timing as the chain was intact but the IP was loose.
Could I have thrown my IP timing out of whack in the timing chain replacement?

I thought the IP would adjust itself.

CODES PO216
236
1214

Smoking like a beast - NOW WHITE SMOKE rattles and stalls. I can warm it up. It will rev up some of the time but other times will bog.

Just checked oil and it was very high on the dipstick. I run the truck in the recommended zone. I am wondering what else is in under the oil pushing it up on the stick. Nothing but oil show on the stick but it is way up halfway on the stick.


What should I do? I just have a code reader. I just want to get it somewhere to be fixed. Should I try turning the IP? Would that help?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bob
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Thanks racer. I am afraid that I have water in the pan. I noticed a froth at the top of the filler ring. Also the level of the oil on the dipstick is very high. Only oil is visible on the stick.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Pull the oil pan plug-water will come out first if its in there since oil floats on water.
Might have poped a head gasket or something cracked,block/heads.
Water/antifreeze makes white smoke also.
Codes are related to your mechanical IP swap except the 0236 which is boost fault.
 
#5 · (Edited)
1. Describe the problem you are having in detail:



I need help. My K3500 dually is down. I have had it for 2 months. It always seemed to smoke a lot more than my other trucks I have had. It seemed to loose power one night. Next morning it sounded like the exhaust manifold was blown. I drove it to find someone to look at it. Not smart. Came home after about 40 miles. Running rough with a knock (light sound) I drove slow. I fixed right side exhaust maniforld. Truck still was running with same knock and engine timing valvle slapt or something. The knock was a timing issue. So, I replace the timing chain. The result was a little less knock but a lot of smoke. It will bog and pour out smoke. I replaced the crank position sensor. I changed the timing offset gizmo on the pass side of the IP ( It was from an old IP _ I know it was a working pull from my 96) Truck is smoking.

My question:
I had to pull the IP back when I did the T Chain. I know that I rotated both the crank and the cam (together) when I turned the cam nut. I turned it back about what I thought it was but I think I went back(clockwise)too far. When this movement occurred it did not affect valve timing as the chain was intact but the IP was loose.
Could I have thrown my IP timing out of whack in the timing chain replacement?

I thought the IP would adjust itself.

CODES PO216
236
1214

Smoking like a beast - NOW WHITE SMOKE rattles and stalls. I can warm it up. It will rev up some of the time but other times will bog.

What should I do? I just have a code reader. I just want to get it somewhere to be fixed. Should I try turning the IP?



OIL IS HIGH ON THE DIPSTICK AND EVEN LEAKING OR SPILLINg OVER IN THE FRONT ONTO THE PULLEYS. i CANNOT SEE THE SOURCE OF THE LEAKS AS i CANNOT KEEP IT IDLING NUW.




fROTH IS SHOWING UP ON THE FILLER CAP AND RING.





wATER IN THE OIL.



............................................................
2. Year of truck/engine 1999.

3. Odometer reading (indicate miles or kilometers).133k

4. Indicate the model number on the Injection pump (starts DS4 or DB2......).ds4

5. Indicate if you know if it’s a 1500, 2500, 2500HD, 3500, 3500HD.
3500hd

6. Do you have an EGR on the engine? (An F or an S engine code 8th VIN digit)NOT SURE WILL CHECK


7. Air Filter condition (visual check).GOOD

8. Fuel filter condition (freshly changed, mileage since changed).OK

9. Location of PMD/FSD? (ex. on pump/remote over intake, behind bumper).ON COOLER OVER PLENUM.

9a. If remote mounted, describe wiring harness (homemade or purchased from which vendor).

9b. Indicate the location and condition of the FSD/IP grounding wire. ORIGINAL LOCAED ON PUMP

10. Outside Temperature (C or F). __50f___ °

11. Service Engine Light while running?- on/off/intermittent INTERMITTENT - i AM CLEARING


11a. Service Engine light does glow during start/cranking/bulb check: Yes/No no

12.Have you scanned for engine codes? Yes/No yse

12a. List exact results on engine codes.
CODES PO216
236
1214

13. Condition of Battery terminals (removed, cleaned and tightened).GOOD

14. Known condition and age of Batteries. 2 YR

14a. Are batteries a matched set of same age? YES

15. Condition of Major Grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened) GOOD VISUAL

16. Does engine crank, or "turn over"? YES

16a. Does engine start and run? YES
17. If engine does not start- Crack injector line: do you have fuel? Yes/No
18. Does your Wait To Start light come on?yes
18a.Number of seconds WTS light is lit. 3 OR 4
19. Engine Cranking speed (if you have an accurate tachometer). GOOD

20. Are you experiencing Stalling? YES
20a. Describe the event (upon startup only, down the road, hit a bump, etc...) WHITE SMOKE
20b. Do you notice loss of dash or instruments? NO
21. Check turbo inlet and air filter for obstructions. OK
22. In a no-hot start, pour a bottle of room-temp water on the injection pump. Does it start now?
23. Lift pump test - Describe results.

24. Upon cold start, does the radiator hose get hard quickly? Yes/No
25. Upon cold start, do you have excessive white smoke? Yes/No YES
26. Do you have excessive cranking time before the engine starts? Yes/No YES
27. Have you used the block heater? Does it affect engine starting? (only try for starting problems). NO
28. Are all glow plugs in proper working order? YES

29. During hard acceleration, do you have excessive black smoke? Yes/No I USED TO NOT NOW
30. Do you have any unusual exhaust smoke issues? YES
31. Turbo check out - Pass/Fail GOOD
32. Indicate fuel that you are using: Bio-Diesel, #2 Diesel, SVO/WVO, other DIESEL
32a. If running Veggie Oil fuel setup, indicate details of your conversion (homemade or packaged system).
33. Are you using any fuel additives? If so, please list.
34. Upon unscrewing fuel cap, do you have a large vacuum formed in the tank? Yes/No YES
35. Do you have any service history available that might pertain to the problem you are having? NO
36. Please indicate any modifications to the vehicle that might help us diagnose better. cps SENSOR, SIDE OF IP STEPPER MOTOR, EXHAUST GASKET, PMD ON A COOLER GRAY NEW KIND
 
#6 · (Edited)
Sorry I carried a thought from another thread over abot the IP or you edited your signature.

P0216 injection pump timing control
P0236 turbo charger boost system
P1214 injection pump timing offset

When you changed the timing chain you altered the electronic IP's timing and it needs to be reset properly.Search TDCO or look in the faq.
Also when you changed the timing chain you could have depeloped a leak from the water pump into the crankcase or you have a blown head gasket or the like.Causes a lot of white smoke.
Runnig with water in the oil eats bearings so you could have developed a serious problem in the bottom end-hope not.
Pull the glow plugs for compression test or just to determine which cylinder has the water leak.The glow plug with all the carbon washed off is the cylider in trouble.
 
#7 · (Edited)
i HAVE A QUESTION. iT MAY SEEM DUMB. bUT HERE GOES:

When I replaced the timing chain, could I have compromised one of the ports, inlet or outlet, for the water-pumo? You know the gasket where the where the water-pump and timing chain cover gasket are about 1/2 inch apart. Could this be the reason for the water? Can water introduced into the oil make it to the tailpipe?
 
#9 ·
That is what I thought. I will have to check out the smell and see if there is water in the smoke tomorrow. Thanks. I will also check the oilpan contents.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Yep the smoke is fuel.

I bet the water is from my work on the timing chain (gasket).

I will look for the TDCO.

Is that the clear codes and turn on key, foot to floor for 45 secs or 1 min then off 30 sec to 1 min? If so I did it several times.

I feel a little less in distress as I think I can figure what probably happened.

I HAVE A QUESTION:
DS4 - I have done several IP changes. I thought they adjusted themselves. Could I be so far out of whack that it can't readjust?
 
#12 ·
The KOKO will adjust the timing but without a OBDII scanner you have no way of knowing where it is adjusted to for base timing.
The TDCO needs to be read with a scanner and then the pump physicaly needs to be moved or with Tech 2 the throttle moved to get the value desired.
If you are way too far out of spec with base timing the ecm can't compensate enough.
 
#13 ·
racer
I changed my signature. My bad. Had you thinking about the old green machine (totaled by a lil ol lady - should have seen her car - she is OK and all is OK). I now drive the black truck we all called 'ol smokey' It was the best running one I ever had until now. It will be back soon. Getting a OBDII scanner from odb-2.com (I think). I'll be able to see the timing info and reset it as needed.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Thanks racer at least I know I am barking up the right tree. So I have to physically turn the pump - Good information. I am thinking that white smoke is retarded and I have to turn the pump toward the driver's side like the mechanical pumps. (I will wait for the scanner to show me how far out I am)
 
#17 ·
Scanner - How to use

I have the scanner being rushed out to me for the weekend. I will dump the oil and fix that dilemma. When I get the software and plug it in, I know I am looking for certain values and I am checking out the info on here. Funny, I looked it up and found your thread. Anyway, I have to take a reading - I am new to this even though I have played with these trucks forever.

You said the directions are not so good so I am looking for whatever info I can get in order to prepare myself for this weekend. Any help is appreciated.
 
#20 ·
Thanks Racer

Thank you. Now I need to find the TDCO recommended setting and what reading or offset reflects advanced or retarded. Then I can rotate the IP.

Does this Car Code do the TDC relearn? So the KOKO is not needed?
 
#21 · (Edited)
Yes carcode does TDCO relearn-did you look at the how to file I posted above?
When you get carcode up and running a value with negative sign (-)in front of it is advanced timing.
A number that reads normally or no negative sign is retarded timing.
Factory TDCO is -0.25 to -0.85
For better perfomance loaded a TDCO value of -1.94 is optimum but during cold starts the engine rattles a lot so a high idle mod is desired for those conditions.A value of -1.50 is fine as well.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Thank you racer

I have rec'd the carcode reader. Now I guess I will have to start the vehicle and check it. Any ideas for quick ip adjustment? The driver side lower nut is hard to reach on this truck. It looks like I have to dismantle at least the dbl thermostat to get to it. I was able to reach it on my other truck by just removing the top hose. This one looks impossible without taking things apart every time and reassembling each time I need to adjust. Any ideas?
How do I do the fast idle mod? First time I heard of it I had a switch for the mech ip. Once again Thank you!
 
#23 ·
Getting ready to work on it. NO WATER IN THE OIL!!!!! I am not sure what the froth at the oil filler was about - obvious moisture. I loosened the drain plug and 3 drips of water - really moisture. When the plug was removed - NO WATER!!! I drained approx 9 QTS of material out. It looks and smells like oil (I was running synthetic with an additive). Now the 9 Qts is about 2-1/2 qts of something additional - FUEL?

Could this be fuel?
Does fuel mix that well with oil (synth)?
COuld the bad timing have deposited oil in my oil?
The froth looked like that of a tired old gasser that never had an oil change. It was not a lot of white foamy stuff - just a little but it scared me along with the level of the oil on the dipstick.
 
#25 · (Edited)
It is likely fuel mixed with the oil.
There could be a problem with a seal in the front of the IP or you could have a bad injector.This time of year and during winter ther is higher humidity in the air and a small amount of froth around the oil fill is not that unusual.
My truck has dual t stats and even before I had the proper wrenches I was able to get at the drivers side nut,just very little swing of the wrench,I also had to add another short wrench for leverage to get it loosened. I did however remove the upper intake to get access to the IP.I just had to reinstall it before running the engine.

Using carcode identify where your TDCO is currently,do not relearn yet.

Loosen all 3 of the nuts when the engine is cold, then determine which way to turn the IP.
To get a higher negative value turn the IP towards the drivers side.
Then only tighten the top stud on the IP so if you need to make adjustments on a hot engine it is much easier to lossen 1 nut rather than 3,and run your engine up to over 180 degrees and proceed with the TDCO relearn.
When you have finished and are satisfied with the TDCO reading you have let the engine cool completly and tighten all 3 of the IP nuts and happy motoring.
 
#24 ·
What I Learned About White Smoke

White Smoke What is it and why ?


Black Smoke is To Much Fuel.
Blue Smoke is Oil.
White Smoke is Incomplete Combustion.

One thing to know :
The higher the compression of an engine the more
Critical and precise the fuel timing has to be !

If the fuel timing is off [retarded or advanced] there will be
Incomplete Combustion, and thus White Smoke !

The More it is Off the more White Smoke and for longer Idle time.

This is what happened to me :

I got a rebuilt Injector pump, Put it on and I set the static timing to -.24
[-0.0 to -.5 is the range you set for]
Then I did the Learn Top Dead Center Offset Learn.
So then the Injector Pump was set right. No White Smoke ! on cold engine
start up.

When I pulled a Travel Trailer for 600 miles, Shut off engine for over night and the started it up next morning I got White Smoke ! What is wrong ? I thought.
I went to the tail pipe and found a low volume of exhaust coming out, with the new Injector pump there was always a lot of exhaust volume coming out. But now there was very little.

I then looked at the fuel timing and it was 9.5° advanced timing when hot.
The timing should be 3.5° advanced.
So what is wrong ?

Also I didn't have the Power that I had with a New Injector Pump.
I couldn't Pull Hills in overdrive any more, I had to do 4th or even 3rd gear.
I have the NV4500 Manual Transition. 3.73 Rear end Ratio 6.5 TD Hi Output
VIN F.
So what is wrong ?

Well the Injector Pump Is Fuel Volume Deficient [Worn out body]
The engine is running too Lean [low power] and the Computer Learns
to make the engine run the best it can, So lean engine the Computer Advances the fuel timing, So at Idle 9.5° instead of 3.5°.
Low exhaust volume is less fuel at idle, the engine uses less fuel at 9.5°
then at 3.5° for the same Idle RPM. So less fuel, less exhaust volume at idle.
also, the fire wall insulation was burning on the drivers side at the cross over pipe. exhaust to hot, lean engine very hot exhaust.
the injector pump was idling at 6-7 mm New pump is 10-11 mm, when they advance the injector pump optical sensor for more fuel it will say on the scan tool less fuel rate in MM the computer compensates with more fuel,
so this one is idling 4 mm less fuel but is is really 4 mm more.
the engine did run a little hotter, with a new injector pump, it was 110° outside full boost 10 psi in overdrive and 2,000 RPM it would run at 192-195 with a new injector pump, everything was OK, fuel rate OK, air fuel ratio OK, Fuel Timing OK. MPG 13-14 MPG, transmition Temp was 190° - 195°
110° outside, full boost 10psi in overdrive at 2,000 RPM 65 MPH.
With the Rebuilt Junk Pump Engine would run at 200° - 210° just a little hotter.
Never Boil Over. MPG was 10. and my transmition would go over 250°
with a 30 foot tongue pull travel trailer, flat road, no wind, 65° outside in Overdrive 60 MPH.

It would have been better to get a New injector pump [$1350] then a Rebuilt Junk Pump [$1050].
I took this pump off and took it back to the Injector Pump Rebuild Shop
and said that these pumps are calibrated and are perfect YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE WRONG WITH YOUR TRUCK !
I asked the Chevy Dealership Diesel Mechanic and said this pump is junk !
It Idles too low on fuel rate it cant put out enough fuel [ 6-7 mm Idle].
they turned the fuel rate up to much, if it idled at 9-10 then it might work OK and have power and start with no white smoke.

I did Replace the Computer With a Refurbished one :

It was cold outside 35°, engine temp was 100° Started it up... 10 seconds glow plug engine quit 3 times and a very large white cloud of smoke, low exhaust volume.
Replaced computer ....
same as before
It was cold outside 35°, engine temp was 100° Started it up... 10 seconds glow plug
engine started just like a new one....
NO WHITE SMOKE ! Idled real smooth, LARGE VOLUME EXHAUST AT TAIL PIPE. I thought I fixed it ! NO NO NO....
went 600 miles pulling trailer, computer learned, offset the timing because
engine running to lean. changed back to JUNK, White Smoke, Just like Before.


I have Made a Scan tool program in Visual Basic so I could see what was
going on with this White Smoke Problem.

any body know the engine calibration data ?
like what the engine fuel timing is for start up at different engine temps ?
 
#26 · (Edited)
Thanks so much

BOY I HOPE IT IS THAT EASY....I am afraid that I moved the crank and cam (when they were connected and the IP was loose - then I turned them back) too much when I did the timing chain. When I turned the cam sprocket nut, the cam and crank moved counter clockwise and I turned it back I think just a bit too far.

I could not get the car dode reader to work today because I am running Win7 Home Premium and it will not run. I called the CarCode company and the guy said I would have to get upgrade to win 7 professional. My wife just purchased it for me for $90. I hate microsoft. I tried to bring back an old XP laptopto no avail.

ANYWAY::
I did have to remove the Plenum-upper intake & I turned the IP all the way to the driver's side and the truck actually idles rough. I will get the reading and chime in. I am afraid it has to go further to advance and I have no room left. I guess this means that I will have to inevitably, take the front apart again and dismantle the IP cog and wheel and turn it back a little. I left the upper intake off to start it. I don't think that hurts anything. I just wanted to get a reading in case I had to move the IP again (I didn't want to put the intake back on and take it back off).

Does that sound right?? Either way I will wait to see where the timing is at 180 degrees.
 
#27 · (Edited)
The initial timing reading you get will be inaccurate since it is stored in the ecm from before the work was done.
So you are correct in letting the engine run up to temp and then do the relearn.
I would still begin with the IP centered just to see where you are.
Also the intake needs to be replaced when you run the engine otherwise you will set some codes and they must be cleared before you can perform the relearn.
Thats the reason for only snugging up the top nut on the IP when the engine was cold,so when its hot you only have to loosen 1 nut to move the IP.
Remember 1mm move on the IP is about equal to 2 degrees of timing change.
So if you begin at 0 dgrees on your first relearn a 1mm change towards the drivers side will get you almost perfectly in time.

When I did mine I used a desktop computer so I could not try setting the timing with the throttle as I have seen described with the tech II and some say carcode can do as well.
I hope to confirm this at a later date when privatepilot comes back my way since I have gotten a working laptop now.
 
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